Fighter House Rule Version

[GM 1990]

After reading over many of the ideas and inputs we're going to be playtesting this in our home game. We currently have two fighters - 1 ranged, and 1 sword/board, both at 4th level.

Three key things I wanted to improve.

1. Combat mobility and lethality
-more attack/move possibilities especially for non-ranged builds
-better save options

2. Combat versatility
-ability to utilize more than 1 primary weapon
-some kind of "ally assist" outside of teamwork feats

3. Out of combat skills and utility
-access to more skills and more points
-skill boosting ability

I give credit to PFCRB (its based off the core fighter), PF Unchained (Stamina ideas), Weapon Master Handbook (AWT ideas), ideas from forum posts, and a couple other fighter home-brews including Lemmy's.

I've not looked at how archtypes would meld in with this yet.

Feedback welcome.

Google Docs Link

[Mudfoot]

Not bad, though the Attack Surge use for stamina is way too good. You get a LOT of stamina points (around 10 at 7th level) so this means he'll always be getting an extra full-BAB attack every round. If it's 5 stamina per attack it might be balanced.

I like the other non-feat uses for stamina. They all look fairly useful and balanced, and a couple have sensible value outside combat (which is nice). I'll probably steal them.

On stamina, you're encouraging a 2-level fighter dip (which may not be what you're after) because it's based on BAB not fighter level and you get a lot of extra powers at that level. I'd personally move it to 1st, base the points on fighter level (not BAB) unless you take the Stamina feat, and maybe release the abilities at 1/level afterwards.

I suspect you'll want some more out-of-combat narrative power, but what depends on the feel you're looking for.

[GM 1990]

Thanks for the feedback.

Last night it was used a couple times out of combat including to ignore a -7 ACP while trying to escape quicksand (came in handy). Tonight was first combat action with it vs an Otyugh, and interestingly they used the extra 5' step more than anything due to the 15' reach it had with tentacles.

Good point about the BAB as opposed to fighter level. 2d Level was intened so if you're going to dip, you have to go more than once, but I hadn't considered that even casters BAB eventually gets high enough that 2 lvl dip may be worth it. Next version, I may move it to Fighter level and as you suggest just make it available at F1.

Its a valid point about the Attack Surge being strong, although the concerns of some are that when a fighter has to move they're only getting 1 attack, so giving them 2 full BAB attacks if they move more than a 5' step was the intent.

In situations where they can stand still and unload Attack Surge plus Heavy Hitter (plus Power Attack) is going to be nasty. But I'm not sure if its too excessive when compared with a metamagic'd AoE spell or a Paladin using Smite or a Large FireElemental Druid and their Dire Tiger AC. 2 point per use might be a better starting place and see how that goes. I tend to have more than 1 encounter per day, so the ability for them to recharge with 10min rest will give them staying power even at a 2pt cost. With homebrew I tend to set the encounters up so its several rounds, thus any time they use the big 4pointers they'll only be able to use a couple other stamina points in that combat. The fatigued until you take an 8hr rest penalty isn't worth the risk of going to 0.

As you noticed, I was really looking for some out of combat (and in combat assistance capability like the Inspiring Courage and Inspiring Fortitude.) I'm hoping with the addition of several skills as class skills and the 4+Int/lvl ranks, the ability to avoid the ACP on Str/Dex and adding up to a 1d10 to a skill check it'll entice someone who likes being a little more "skillish". Plus with the in combat adds someone who wants to may be able to afford putting a couple more points in INT or CHA to gain ranks or be better at some checks.

Max of -5 Iterative and the WT group plus AWT at 9/13/17th will make the melee fighters more effective w/o having to min/max STR as much.

The other 2 PCs are a TWF UCRogue and Cleric4/Sorc1 so there may be some table opinion as we introduce this in my homebrew campaign that this makes the fighters too powerful, but different party comp would appear more balanced.

Any other ideas for out of combat adds?

[Cyrad]

The stamina abilities are way too strong. Suddenly, you made the fighter more mobile than an unchained monk. And gave him bonus attacks that can be used when moving. That alone is ridiculously powerful, so much that it was grounds to make it a core mythic ability. You also gave them an at-will version of the investigator's inspiration, which is baffling. Each one of the stamina abilities would work as a higher level class feature on its own. You given the fighter TEN of them at 2nd level

Another big problem is that you give all the good stuff at low levels when it's around level 7-8 that fighters start to fall off hard. Fighters are already very strong at around 1-2th level. The only thing bad about them at those levels is that their class features are bland and uninteresting and don't give fighters much to do beyond stabbing things. Your fighter house rules don't accomplish that at all.

[Lemmy]

Overall, it's a really good improvement to the class... But I do have some criticism to make...

A couple stamina abilities are really good... Specifically Burst of Speed and the one that gives you an extra attack. I'd dip Fighter every time just for them. The others range from okay to "I'll forget this even exists" (1d6 to an skill check? Who cares?). Other than that, I don't see any problem with them.

I don't see why give them AWT... Fighters already have that option now, so you're effectivelly giving them nothing. I suppose getting them for free is better...

However the class doesn't really gain anything interesting later on... AWT is ok, but not particularly impressive or exciting. Personally, I'd dip 2 level of this Fighter for the stamina abilities, then drop the class, since the interesting class features are few and far between (that might be just me, though).

Iterative Mastery may be too good, however. Even more so if combined with Burst of Speed. It means Fighters will basically never miss any attack other than on Nat 1s. I don't think Fighters need even more damage... Specially at high levels. It's an 18th level ability, though... So it probably won't matter in most campaigns.

Anyway... I have a couple suggestions:

1- Give it a few more narrative abilities.
2- Don't make every option a stamina power. Just give them to Fighters 24/7. There's no need for Solo Tactics and Martial Versatility to require stamina.
3- Add more class features that are interesting, unique and fun! Adding bonuses to this and that is fine and all... But it's really boring.

[GM 1990]

I appreciate the input, and already doing some tinkering.

@ Lemmy - One reason I used stamina for a lot of the new items is for those players who like having choices to make. With only 1 swift action a round it adds a little bit of complexity for those who enjoy having to decide between a vs b or c.

IYO how much bonus on a skill check is enough? I went d6 since it'll replicate Skill Focus avg. I thought about flat bonus, but rolling a dice IMO is more fun than just adding 3 to the skill check. Since they can apply it to any trained skill its like having Skill Focus +3 bonus in every skill (although a limited # of times per day).

@ Cyrad - true on the move actions. And after seeing it in action last night we're already looking at a change. I'm going to leave the 5' step option and change the "add a move action" to "add 10' to move speed for the round". It'll still give them added mobility to help cover the battlefield and compete with monk/barbarian on any given round, but its not dimension door or teleport.

Also going to make stamina pool 1/2 Fighter Lvl+Con. So dipping gives you a small pool, but won't scale for non-fighters. Will also mean if you use it for one of the 4pt abilities it'll leave you with little else in that combat at lower levels (or may not even be able to use those until 4th level if Con is only +2).

Going to work with might fighters and maybe develop a list of selection options including some for later levels, probably optional stamina uses or "add on ability" - similar to rogue talent and other "pick one every few levels" concepts. While still keeping it on a more traditional flavor (avoiding too much mystical/spell like flavor).

Thanks for taking the time to review it and provide feedback.

[Ciaran Barnes]

SKILLS
I'm on board with upping it to 4 skill points. However, not on board with the 2 additional points to only spend on certain skills. If that a mechanic you wish to introduce then it should go to all classes, not just one. If you want some fighters to be smart and have a wide variety of skills, then offer some kind of incentive to fighters who choose to have a better Intelligence score.

WEAPON PROFICIENCY
I don't like the "all exotic" thing. Why would a fighter choose a martial weapon at all when exotic weapons are better and he is proficient with all of them?

BONUS FEATS
I like the built in retraining. However, I think a reduced quantity of bonus feats and the brawler's martial flexibility would be better that a big pile of feats.

BRAVERY AND DISCIPLINE
So he gets a poor will save, plus a scaling bonus to will saves. Would it just be easier to give him a good will save? Also, the way you wrote the class feature, it is unclear whether or not he gains both bonuses against fear saves or just one.

STAMINA POOL
I like the general idea. It might be simpler to just say that he gets a stamina pool, per the PF unchained book, and that he also gets the following ways to spend points. I think that the stamina costs you have assigned need to be re-evaluated. I would say that the cost if off on most of these. Let me begin by saying that I am a big proponent of having ways to change action economy, but you also have to watch how far you go because it's very easy to go too far.

ARMORED AGILITY
Good start. How long does the bonus last? I might cause to lessen the penalty by amount equal to the number of points spent, but have it last a while.

ATTACK SURGE
The cost is way off. If I had this, by the time I have a few levels under my belt I will be using this ability literally every single round. You should jack up the price and/or tack on some kind of attack penalty. For example, 3 points for an attack at -5, or 5 points for an attack at -0. This one needs care.

BURST OF SPEED
Like the idea, but it's too complicated.

DISCIPLINED ACTION
Why is the fighter so good at skills? He can use his 2 free points to get training in a variety of things, and than add 1d6 to them all. When he's not in combat, you might as well just call it a free +1d6 to a big list of skill. So I would severely limit this. Maybe there is a short list of skills. Maybe the cost is higher, since he's a combat specialist, not a skill specialist. Maybe the bonus only kicks in while he is in the heat of combat. Outside of combat he just doesn't have the same kind of focus. Why is it necessary to say that it stacks with Skill Focus?

HARDY REFLEXES
This is a great example of how you need to re-evaluate the stamina costs. This one costs 4 but a free attack at full BAB costs 1. The net result of 4 points is a few extra points added to a reflex saving. Maybe as a fix, he simple gets a bonus to the save, instead of swapping out the ability modifier uses. Maybe he has a poor will save and can add the bonus to reflex or will saves.

HEAVY HITTER
I might change this one to adding dice to the damage roll, where the dice don't multiply on a crit. As he gains levels, the die value/number of dice increases

IMMEDIATE VIGOR
It might be simpler to grant temps equal to his level and limit it to once per hour (like the unchained barbarian).

SPEEDY PARRY
It not quite a parry, is it? He improving his response time to incoming attacks.

WEAPON INSTINCTS
My personal feeling is that this kind of ability should be available without spending points, and should be something an experienced fighter can do by spending enough time. Maybe measured in hours or day.