Picture this: A wizard, for whatever reason, decides at creation to VMC as an oracle. They take the Battle mystery, and upon reaching level 3, pick Skill at Arms as their revelation (d20 link since it's less scrolling).
Skill at Arms wrote: You gain proficiency in all martial weapons and heavy armor. Sure Part: The wizard is now proficient in martial weapons as well as heavy armour (albeit with no help against arcane spell failure chance).
Unsure Part/Question: Is the wizard now proficient in all simple weapons and medium and light armour?
Fundamentally, does martial weapon/heavy armour proficiency itself make you proficient in "only martial weapons/heavy armour", or "up to martial weapons/heavy armour"? Hoping there's some official rule tucked out of immediate sight, like medium armour = medium encumbrance.
Asking more for curiosity than practical use, thanks for any help :).
They would only have the proficiency specified. So martial weapons and heavy armour.
In the same way that a ranger taking rapid shot as a bonus feat doesn't automatically get point blank shot, even though point blank is otherwise a prereq. Bonus feats that ignore prereqs are basically like cutting in line, you skip everything up to that point.
Ah, the joys of taking stuff not meant for you class. The only hazard here is that oracles already have all simple weapons, as well as light and medium armours; thus, a power written for oracles wouldn't repeat what's normally redundant. Betty the Battle Oracle would just wear tankier armour and swing clankier weapons than, say, Nate the Nature Oracle.
Bonus feats don't automatically ignore pre-requisites. Unless there is wording to the effect of "you can use this feat even if you don't meet the pre-requisites" you do indeed gain the feat, but you can't use it. At least until you gain light and medium armour proficiency anyway.
dragonhunterq wrote: Bonus feats don't automatically ignore pre-requisites. Unless there is wording to the effect of "you can use this feat even if you don't meet the pre-requisites" you do indeed gain the feat, but you can't use it. At least until you gain light and medium armour proficiency anyway.
It isn't a feat. It's an Oracle Revelation gained via VMC. Normally, an Oracle already has proficiency with simple weapons, as well as light and medium armor, and the revelation adds all Martial weapons and Heavy armor. But the character in question is a Wizard who normally lacks simple weapon, light armor, and heavy armor proficiency. So the question is whether the martial weapon proficiency would "fill in" since martial weapons are, presumably, more complex to use compared to simple weapons; as well as whether heavy armor proficiency would help in wearing lighter armors. In other words, are weapon and armor proficiency considered "inclusive" of lower tiers or "exclusive".
On the one hand, if you know how properly use a martial weapon, it makes logical sense that you have the competence to properly use a simple weapon. Likewise, if you know how to move around properly in heavy armor like full-plate, you should know how to move properly in a lighter armor like Chain, or Leather.
But, on the other hand, different weapons have different principals of proper use. Being able to swing a Shortsword or a Longsword doesn't necessarily mean you can use a Dagger with the same proficiency, since it is a much smaller weapon, has different balance and weight, and attack patterns would be different. Moreover, just because you are skilled with an Exotic weapon doesn't necessarily translate to being skilled with any Martial weapons (though, it probably should). A Cleric using a Bastard Sword as their deity's favored weapon isn't necessarily skilled in using Greatswords. Likewise, skill in using heavy armor like Plate, which is rigid and requires particular movements to use properly, doesn't necessarily mean complete competence in using lighter and more flexible armors.
Therefore, strictly speaking, the Wizard in question does not automatically count his Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon proficiency towards lower-tier equipment. However, it would not be entirely out of line for the GM to offer a circumstance (or maybe competence) bonus towards use of lower-tier equipment. If it were me, I'd give a +2 bonus towards Simple weapons (bringing the total non-prof bonus down to -2) and reduce the penalty to attack for armor by 2 for medium, and 1 for light. Alternatively, modify the ability to reflect the disparate combat abilities of any class that might take it. Maybe offer the "next level" or proficiency with all weapons. So, for a Monk, Monk, or Wizard, they'd gain proficiency with all simple weapons; otherwise, you'd gain proficiency with all martial weapons. Likewise, it would give proficiency with the next tier of armor higher than what they currently have.
As stated VMCs ONLY grant what they specifically say they grant. This can result in being granted feats you can not use. Not all VMC's are guaranteed to be operational with all classes.
Is your wizard that determined to play the part of the Big Dumb Fighter?
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The revelation does not grant you feats. You are simply proficient in martial weapons and heavy armor.
They wouldn't get the lower proficiencies.
If I had, for example, taken Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Katana) as a Rogue, that doesn't entitle me to be proficient in all Martial Weapons because I all of a sudden can wield an Exotic Weapon.
This is no different than characters having proficiency in certain items in the same category, but not all items in that category (i.e. I'm proficient with a Longsword but not a Scimitar).
I will say that by the rules, you could do this, but as far as properly functioning, it would make no sense, as it creates a "Walk before I could Crawl or Stand" situation, being able to properly use Full Plate before you could properly use a Breastplate or Chainmail, or use a Halberd before you could use a Spear, to which any sane GM would say "No, that's stupid and wouldn't work in my game."
The intent behind Skill at Arms is you are more skilled in the manner of combat than others of your kind. To that point, the general rule I'd impose would be character's proficiencies are one step higher. This makes it so that PCs who are only proficient with Simple Weapons and Light or Medium Armor (like the Oracle or Cleric) can still maintain the benefits it normally gets, but those who aren't at that level (not proficient with hardly any weapons or armor) only scale up to a proper level (such as Light Armor and Simple Weapons), and those that are better than it are even stronger (all Exotic Weapons and all Armors and Shields).
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: They wouldn't get the lower proficiencies.
If I had, for example, taken Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Katana) as a Rogue, that doesn't entitle me to be proficient in all Martial Weapons because I all of a sudden can wield an Exotic Weapon.
This is no different than characters having proficiency in certain items in the same category, but not all items in that category (i.e. I'm proficient with a Longsword but not a Scimitar).
I will say that by the rules, you could do this, but as far as properly functioning, it would make no sense, as it creates a "Walk before I could Crawl or Stand" situation, being able to properly use Full Plate before you could properly use a Breastplate or Chainmail, or use a Halberd before you could use a Spear, to which any sane GM would say "No, that's stupid and wouldn't work in my game."
The intent behind Skill at Arms is you are more skilled in the manner of combat than others of your kind. To that point, the general rule I'd impose would be character's proficiencies are one step higher. This makes it so that PCs who are only proficient with Simple Weapons and Light or Medium Armor (like the Oracle or Cleric) can still maintain the benefits it normally gets, but those who aren't at that level (not proficient with hardly any weapons or armor) only scale up to a proper level (such as Light Armor and Simple Weapons), and those that are better than it are even stronger (all Exotic Weapons and all Armors and Shields).
There are other precedents for this though. Steelblood bloodragers are only proficient in heavy armor for example.
Again, I'm not saying he can't do this. I'm saying that per RAW, it's allowed.
I suppose it can make sense thematically, since it's a Revelation granting that benefit. But still, a lot of GMs are gonna look at it and shrug in confusion, or simply deny it based on other, more common precedents already set.
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