Gestalt Dragon Disciple Build

[Anger Nogar]

Hi there. I am trying to come up with a Dragon Disciple Build for an upcoming gestalt game starting at lvl 15. I was thinking about going with dragon disciple and optimizing around his form of the dragon ability (and the spell once I get it at lvl :

Angel-Blooded Aasimar Unarmed Fighter 5/Enlightened Paladin 10 || Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 10

Stats: Prayer and Form of the Dragon II included
Str: 40, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 22
HP: 172, AC: 43, Touch: 25
Saves: Fort 29 Ref 21 Will 25
Skills: Intimidate +42

Traits: Magical Knack (Sorcerer), Fate's Favored

Feats: Skill Focus (Knowledge the Planes), Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal), Improved Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal), Improved Unarmed Strike (b), Eschew Materials (b), Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike), Martial Versatility, Dragon Style, Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Toughness, Improved Initiative, Cornugon Smash, Intimidating Prowess, Signature Skill (Intimidate).

Items: Gloves of Dueling, Ioun Stone (Pale Green Prism), +1 Keen Spell Storing Amulet of Mighty Fists, Ring of Protection +4, Cloak of Resistance +5, Belt of Physical Perfection +2, Headband of Alluring Charisma +4, Lesser Metamagic Rod Quicken, 2 Pearls of Power III, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier

Unarmed Strike +33 1d8+45 damage, Bite +33 2d6+45 damage, 2 Claws +33 1d8+38 damage, 2 Wings +28 1d6+30, Tail Slap +28 1d8+30

First of all I am not sure what to expect as an opposition at gestalt 15, since I have never played a gestalt game before. Are my attack/defense and damage values viable?

Second, I have no idea what sorcerer spells to use. Besides the standard shield/mage armor/Blade Tutor's Spirit/haste/greater heroism/displacement... none of the others seems suitable for a melee gish. What are some other stable gish spells that will be useful for my character?

If I cast chill touch, can I apply it with each of my unarmed/natural attacks by making a normal attack rather than a touch one and combining my usual damage with the effect of the spell?

Can I use my monk unarmed strike as a natural attack rather than a weapon attack? What I mean by that is make a single attack at my highest BAB, but keep my primary natural attacks from being downgraded to secondary.

Will a spell storing amulet of mighty fists allow me to store one spell in each of my natural attacks? Can I have shocking grasp stored in my tail and a vampiric touch in my bite at the same time?

Is there a way to get a pounce ability or equivalent without class dips into other classes? I believe the quick runner shirt wont work in dragon form, will it?

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

Its almost never worth Going all 10 levels of Dragon Disciple.

I think it is cool and all but I'd be too tempted to do Primalist Spell Eater Arcane Bloodrager//Cross Blooded Orc-Draconic Sorcerer 6/Dragon Disciple 8/Sorcerer 6

Nothing Like being a raging dragon who Has Bloodrage, come and Get me Rage power, Fast healing (around 10), 50% miss chance, a stupidly high Stats, pro at killing all things with magic or SLAs, and has been fed a D10-d12 Hit dice his entire life.

[Anger Nogar]

Well, the last 2 levels of the DD do suck a bit, but they give me access to FotD II one level earlier, so I consider it a somewhat acceptable reason to loose one caster level.

[Valandil Ancalime]

Why lose Caster Levels? On the levels you would lose a caster level from DD, take DD/Sor. You will end up Sor8/DD10/12 Fighter or EP, but with full caster levels. The Blood of Dragons ability may end up as 18th level bloodline stuff, or not, depending on how your DM rules it.

[Anger Nogar]

Yeah, haven't considered the fact that I can move some of the sorcerer levels to the "other side".
Unarmed Fighter 5/Enlightened Paladin 8/Sorcerer 2 || Sorcerer 7/Dragon Disciple 8 seems much more attractive then, since I can get up to 4 Form of the Dragon IIs or Limited Wishes if need be.
I don't think I would get lvl 18 bloodline stuff, but it hardly gives any additional bonuses.

Some more questions though.

1. If I am flying around using the form of the dragon II spell, I can't use my wings to attack since I use them for flying... but can I manifest the wings I get from my bloodline and use them for flying instead so I can attack with the wings granted by the spell. In other words - can I have two pairs of wings?

2. Not being able to pounce and having a shitload of natural attacks continues to look like a huge issue to me. If an enemy tries to kite me around by always running away and attacking me once or attacking me and running away (depending on him being ranged or melee) would the reach of my bite attack allow me to take 2 opportunity attacks against him? One for leaving the adjacent square with my claws and one for leaving my 10 ft. reach with my bite?

3. Does the spell storing amulet of mighty fists allow me to manifest my claw and bite, charge them with one spell each and then dismiss them so they are ready for when I need them?

[Atarlost]

1. No. FotD is a polymorph spell and polymorph spells override other physical changes. You might be able to double up on wings using the barbarian's dragon totem since those are "spiritual" rather than physical, but physical wings are out even though they aren't called out as a polymorph effect.

2) You can't make two AoOs against the same trigger. Moving through multiple threatened squares is the primary example given of what you don't get multiple AoOs for.

3) No. Either the effect is on the amulet and you can only store one spell which is discharged by any unarmed or natural attack or it's on the weapon and the weapon stops existing when dismissed. Neither interpretation permits what you want.

If your goal is to optimize for FotD I don't think enlightened paladin and unarmed fighter are your best choices. Unarmed Strikes and natural attacks don't really play nicely together and not having pounce on a natural attack build is very suboptimal. I'd suggest taking barbarian or skald levels to get the beast totem rage powers.

Barbarian gets pounce in 10 levels and full BAB, but interferes with casting. Skald normally gets pounce in 12 levels but can take extra rage power to get it one or two levels earlier depending on what dipping is in its track. Raging Song doesn't interfere with casting from any source, but the skald is not full BAB.

Bloodrager is just worse than barbarian or skald since it can't qualify for extra rage power and can't cast non-bloodrager spells while raging.

[Weirdo]

Atarlost wrote:

Bloodrager is just worse than barbarian or skald since it can't qualify for extra rage power and can't cast non-bloodrager spells while raging.

Mad Magic. Bloodragers have an easier time casting Sorc spells in rage than Barbarians do.

YMMV on whether you'd prefer the ability to take Extra Rage power or bloodline abilities. Notably, 16th level Draconic Bloodragers get unlimited Form of the Dragon II while raging. You should be able to trade the 4th, 8th, and 12th level bloodline powers for rage powers without missing anything, since the sorc/DD half grants those powers anyway.

Valandil Ancalime wrote:

Why lose Caster Levels? On the levels you would lose a caster level from DD, take DD/Sor. You will end up Sor8/DD10/12 Fighter or EP, but with full caster levels.

Note that not all GMs will permit this manipulation of the order in which you take class levels. You can get obviously ridiculous characters like that (eg a fighter 1 sorcerer 19//wizard 20 with full BAB).

[Anger Nogar]

Atarlost wrote:

1. No. FotD is a polymorph spell and polymorph spells override other physical changes. You might be able to double up on wings using the barbarian's dragon totem since those are "spiritual" rather than physical, but physical wings are out even though they aren't called out as a polymorph effect.

2) You can't make two AoOs against the same trigger. Moving through multiple threatened squares is the primary example given of what you don't get multiple AoOs for.

3) No. Either the effect is on the amulet and you can only store one spell which is discharged by any unarmed or natural attack or it's on the weapon and the weapon stops existing when dismissed. Neither interpretation permits what you want.

1. I don't get this one. You don't HAVE wings, you can grow them. The Polymorph sub school seems to explicitly allow it.

"You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function."
Sorcerer growing wings seems to be exactly the same, and I don't see what stops you from having two pairs of physical wings in a game where you can have two pairs of arms for example.

2. Clear enough. Thanks.

3. I don't get this one as well. If the spell is stored in the amulet it is clear you can discharge it only once, but the amulet seems to give the natural weapons the spellstoring weapon property, so it seems that it will be stored in them, so about them disappearing...
You have a limited time you can use your bite and claws, but I don't loose them anymore that you loose your sword when you polymorph into a dragon. It is just unavailable for use. At least this is my reading.
If the weapon is re-created from scratch each time - this would imply that limited use properties like "lucky" will recharge with each manifestation rather than each day, which seems broken and wrong.

A second opinion will be welcome.