Natural attacks and avaible limbs

[Blymurkla]

This has probably been asked before, but my searches didn't yield an answer.

Do you need limbs to make natural attacks? Do different natural attacks compete for the same limbs?

PRD wrote:

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam).

This line seems to indicate that natural attacks do need limbs and that claws, tentacles and slam attacks "compete" - you can't use say 2 claws and one slam attack unless you've got three limbs available.

Yet the rule is about using weapons in conjunction with natural attacks, and I suppose I should not extrapolate and assume it means anything but exactly what it says.

Lots of templates grant natural attacks. What attacks does a fast zombie troll have? It already has two claws, can it use those in conjunction with the two slams granted from the template or does it have to choose? That about a fast zombie gray ooze, with one slam attack from the beginning, one from zombie and one extra "while using full attack" from the fast modification of zombie?

[Ridiculon]

You can have the same number of natural attacks on a full attack as the number of natural attacks you have. The only time a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon compete for a limb slot is if they are in fact using the same limb.

eg, if you are holding a sword with your claw you forego 1 claw attack when you use the sword (and vice versa).

Blymurkla wrote:

Do you need limbs to make natural attacks? Do different natural attacks compete for the same limbs?

normally you wont have multiple natural attacks on the same limb, using multiple (spells/abilities) effects to put multiple attacks on a single limb usually won't work due to the limits on polymorph type spells

Blymurkla wrote:

Lots of templates grant natural attacks. What attacks does a fast zombie troll have? It already has two claws, can it use those in conjunction with the two slams granted from the template or does it have to choose? That about a fast zombie gray ooze, with one slam attack from the beginning, one from zombie and one extra "while using full attack" from the fast modification of zombie?

the troll doesnt have to choose, he gets 2 claws and 2 slams.

the ooze will get 3 slams on a full attack yes

[Avoron]

The basic principle is shown a bit more concretely by this FAQ:

Half-Orc--Toothy: Does this alternate racial trait stack with the Razortusk feat (page 168) granting you two bite attacks? wrote:

This is one of those areas where we tried to get at the same idea multiple ways. In this case, the answer is no, unless you somehow manage to get an extra mouth. Generally speaking, natural weapons can only be used once per round each. This also applies to the Animal Fury barbarian rage power (Core Rulebook, page 32).

Things like haste, the fast zombie template, and the extra attack animal companions can get don't run up against this rule, because they allow you to make multiple attacks with the same natural weapon rather than trying to fit more than one weapon onto one limb.

And slams are another issue entirely, because whether or not a slam attack is associated with a particular limb is a confusing and ambiguous mess.

[N. Jolly]

Plus the head isn't really a 'limb' for things like this, as there's several creatures that have gore and bite attacks listed in their full attack routine like the gargoyle.