Over on my blog I've been making some posts about guns and their roll in my spacefaring campaign. I recently posted about one detail that kind of throws a lot of previous decisions off.
The gist of it is that Gunslinger isn't the only one slinging guns so his exclusive ability to deal dex to damage with firearms makes things difficult to deal with. Dex to damage makes firearms way more dangerous but that's easy to compensate for so the biggest problem is that the gunslinger is the only one that can do it. With guns being martial weapons in this campaign it's easy enough to use them but that dex to damage is way too valuable to pass up forcing anyone that would want to do this to dip into gunslinger since everyone would want to use a firearm and I don't want Gunslinger to be the only class that does this if everyone is using firearms.
For this reason when my players meet for the session zero tomorrow I'm letting them discuss and then vote on three options.
1. Ban Gunslinger. This eliminates the problem altogether and I don't have to change anything. Although despite the advantages of firearms using rapid shot with them and using automatic mode is still -4 to each shot so they may actually come out relatively weak considering that technology makes melee combat pretty dangerous and the ability to avoid touch attacks is greatly increased.
2. Change how firearms work. One thing that I do for steampunky games is to make firearms lose the touch attacks and misfire and instead naturally deal dex to damage. Gunslinger gets Gun Training but its a +1 competence bonus at first level and every four levels after. This still results in me not needing to do anything to compensate for touch attacks being a major thing. However this makes some abilities and items useless like bulletproofing, scatterlight armor and the Avoidance feat chain.
3. Make Gun Training a combat feat, prerequisite +1 BAB and 13 Dex. This is the most extreme in terms of compensating but it's not impossible. In situations like this I add creatures' Natural Armor to their touch AC against firearms or as DR through the use of third party templates. Or in some cases just adding more monsters. It also can prove to be pretty lethal to players as They have to account for NPCs with firearms dealing a lot of damage to them without bonus HP to compensate. This makes touch AC very vital and although there is enough defenses to go around this will eat up equipment, feats or class features.
So tell me, what would you choose and why and if there are any better solutions that you can think of?
ive always felt like the firearms of pathfinder were terribly designed overall for any Steampunk, cyberpunk, or space adventures set outside Golarion's pseudo-Renaissance era. The technology guide is a bit of a train wreck, too.
The prices dont work for modern era games, nor are their enough options for firearm varieties. Where are the assault rifles and submachine pistols? etc.
As to your post:
1) Not sure Gunslinger needs to be banned in the process.
I like number 2 and 3 to a certain point.
ive always felt like the firearms of pathfinder were terribly designed overall for any Steampunk, cyberpunk, or space adventures set outside Golarion's pseudo-Renaissance era. The technology guide is a bit of a train wreck, too.
The prices dont work for modern era games, nor are their enough options for firearm varieties. Where are the assault rifles and submachine pistols? etc.
You kind of have to make them work.
For steampunk to modern the option #2 up above is a neat and fast fix. Guns get used more often and they are worthwhile without gunslinger levels.
In regards to pricing, I'll be talking about it more on my blog later but the prices make sense if you convert them to magic weapons that do the same thing according to the weapon design guidelines so if you lower the price then you have to compensate with powerful players. If you take things to their logical extent the prices for a lot of things go out the window. Food and other resources would obviously be way more accessible with more technology around that's better than a level 1 commoner and a plow, so where do you price food? Because I'm lazy I went this route: I dropped technological items to 10% of their normal cost and increased the effective APL of the party based on the assumption that they'll be more powerful.
In regards to firearm variety and weapon/item variety in general, that's where third party products come in. Currently the game actually has submachine pistols and sniper rifles along with some magi-tech guns and guns where you need some Str to handle but do about three times as much damage. I also added those for the sake of melee weaponry. I'm making NPCs for the campaign that have atomic knuckles, exploding boomerangs, lightsabers, gunblades, graviton hammers, and magnetic captain america shields just to make the world extra crazy.
I like the bleed quality idea. I'll probably start without it so I have time to run some one shots with it and add it as an ammunition quality. Bleed is fairly easy to deal with but it does add a bit of uniqueness to ballistic firearms.
Have you considered my gunslinger/firearms houserules?
What if firearms targeted flat footed AC?
It almost makes more sense - the target can't dodge the bullet, but their armor can save them. Large enemies have the natural armor to resist the bullet, and it's more advantageous against smaller less armored targets.
Obviously, it can be cheesed by a rogue with a gun but simply saying you can't sneak attack with a gun without some special property solves that, but I don't even know if I would do that since rogues in space is literally the single most iconic space epic trope there is.
I would say that dodging a bullet is about as realistic as dodging an arrow. Both are so ridiculously difficult that the difference between them is splitting hairs.
The most "realistic" solution is to have a penetration mechanic. If you do that then you can produce a system that vaguely resembles how guns work in real life, where the best solution to facing armor is to shoot bigger, faster bullets. If you don't want to add a complex mechanic to simulate firearms, then it becomes a game of "pick your poison". Touch AC is silly unless armor is completely outclassed by guns (which is partially true in a medieval setting), and flatfooted AC doesn't make sense unless bows and crossbows always target flatfooted AC too*.
*seriously, an arrow travels at roughly 1/3 of the speed of a handgun bullet - neither are remotely "dodgeable" in close quarters.
What if firearms targeted flat footed AC?
It almost makes more sense - the target can't dodge the bullet, but their armor can save them. Large enemies have the natural armor to resist the bullet, and it's more advantageous against smaller less armored targets.
Obviously, it can be cheesed by a rogue with a gun but simply saying you can't sneak attack with a gun without some special property solves that, but I don't even know if I would do that since rogues in space is literally the single most iconic space epic trope there is.
That means a stationary target is just as easy to hit as a moving target. Dodge bonuses don't just mean being able to dodge attacks. It also means fighting with respect to a known hostile entity.
You could just throw the whole touch attack business out the window. You're playing a scifi setting. Just say that armor has stayed competitive with the penetrating power of firearms.
To some extent I have to keep things abstract and to some extent I have to stay in line with some of paizo's rules to play nice with 3pp products. I have no issues with touch AC. There are several ways to avoid firearms in third and first party material. Bulletproofing advanced dodging feats, scatter light armor, ion taped armor, and energy resistance just to name a few. With monsters i can just template them so their natural AC applies to firearms. My real problem is that gunslinger gets an ability that's too good to not dip, and firearms are somewhat rinky dink without dex to damage especially with what I allow melee weapons especially technological ones outpace them by miles.
Have Dex to damage for firearms work like Strength to damage with composite bows and change gun training to work like the fighter's weapon training with firearms.
It's not the class itself that bugs me but the precedence it sets. If guns are common and dex to damage is vital, then it should not exist or it should be accessible to everyone without dipping.
It's not the class itself that bugs me but the precedence it sets. If guns are common and dex to damage is vital, then it should not exist or it should be accessible to everyone without dipping.Dervish Dance [combat]there might be more in Ult Intrigue...
I mean with firearms. They already have access to melee Dex to damage from 3pp feats, and its easier to do than fencing grace. Not as useful because melee technology is fairly appealing but it is there.