This has been more of a thought puzzle for me than anything else, "How to make a 6th level caster equivalent to a 9th caster with just casting?"
I'm finding that multiple spell levels are a hard thing to overcome with just "broken" class features like free meta magic and boosted action economy.
My first idea was trying out a wizard/cleric hybrid and seeing if a "sub-par wizard" + a "sub-par cleric" could equal a viable character
Wizard/Cleric
At level 1, I was worried that a higher number of slots would be too strong, but it seems to be balanced out by high stat requirements and a lack domain/school powers that are really strong at early levels.
Level 4 seems a tad strong, but I was comparing the spell slot edge to animal companions and it just didn't seem like an issue. Overall this char is pretty equal to my psion.
Level 8 is when the concept starts to get tested, because now real fullcasters have higher level slots and my 6th caster just has class features like Dual casting and Meta Adapt to close the gap. So does a level 1 spell + a level 3 spell compete with a 4th level spell (or a 5th level spell next level)? If the idea is too strong, I think it would be most apparent at this level, yet I personally haven't seen an issue.
Level 12 is the opposite test. If the concept is too weak, it should be apparent here. At this level the 6th caster is competing with 4th+2nd level spells with 6th and 5th level spells. Right now, I feel like the normal fullcaster is just stronger.
Idk. Suggestions? Other 6th caster ideas? Would you want someone playing this class in your party?
A 6-level spellcaster can fill the caster role. The magus is a great example of this and even the summoner can fill the gap since they also have some of the staple wizard spells. The problem is that nearly all 6-level spellcasters are spontaneous casters where spellcasting just functions as an extra bit of utility for them. Bards and inquisitors don't fill the full caster role very well.
The problem with your class is that there's almost nothing to do beyond spellcasting. There's other little problems I have with the class, but that's not related to this conversation.
The thing about hybriding is making sure you balance the two parts of the individual classes. A 6th level caster Wiz/Clr or Clr/Wiz is a great idea. One idea would be to give the class a unique and balanced spell list of both basic wizard and cleric spells. Perhaps all spells found on both cleric and wizard spell lists, plus some other generalist type spells from both lists.
Definitely a prepared spellcaster, but whether you want to pray or study for the spells, that's up to you. You could simply have a base spell list of 6th level cleric and wizard spells (like some of the official hybrids do). He'd then follow the wizard rules for preparing his wizard spells (must be in his spellbook) and the cleric's rules for praying to prepare any cleric spells. He'd use the same slots as a 6th level caster, but must decide what spells to prepare (wizard or cleric) in those slots.
Then, you can incorporate a class feature that allows the player to focus on a specific path-essentially allowing for robust school focus or domain focus, granting the class even spells normally of 9th level. The path would grant a single spell slot of each level that his path spells can be cast in, much like domain spell slots, or the bonus spell of each spell level like a school grants. Or you could simply have a list of specific spells that are added to the base spell list that enhances his spell repertoire based on the path. probably easier to do. Perhaps paths like these?
Animal/Plant (nature spells)
Abjuration/Protection (dispelling and protection spells)
Conjuration/Creation (summoing spells, creation spells)
Divination (scry, knowledge-based spells)
Elemental (choose Air, Earth Fire or Water)
Evocation/Destruction (offensive damaging spells)
Healing (curing spells)
Necromancy (undead/death spells)
Transmutation/Shapeshifting
You could then incorporate the spontaneous casting class feature, but only spells on the path's list can be cast in this way.
Domain and school powers from the wizard and cleric classes could also be incorporated. As well as channeling? Perhaps using an arcane reservoir type of mechanic? Choose certain powers/features and spend them via a point pool.
Those are just some of my ideas off the top of my head.
I think the witch class is a good hybrid arcane/divine class.
You might want to remove the hexes, and maybe replace them with something else, but it works.
If you really want to avoid 9th level spells then look at the spells of the bard and inquisitor, and pick from those.
@Cyrad
I do want the class to mainly be about spellcasting like any other fullcaster. I added things like channel energy and wizard bonus feat to hopefully expand what the class is doing for the character.
@Elghinn Lightbringer
I like the idea. Super charging domain/school powers may be a great way to get a 6th Wizard or 6th cleric concept going. That may be too specialized for a clr/wiz though. I did try to stick in some channeling though
@wraithstrike
Rather than poaching good spells from traditional partial casters, I tried buffing the meta magic for this class.
Making a witch 6th caster probably isn't that hard. If you buff hexes a little and make familiar more combat capable like animal companions, then that would probably make for a very solid class.
Metamagic feats are not generally all that good. Empower is good. Extend spell is good at lower levels. The bouncing metamagic feat, and the one that makes you roll twice is good. So is the one that makes you dazed. I see what you did by making the metamagic feats better, but I still think it needs 3/4 BAB, and to lose arcane spell failure chance.
Even the normal mystic theurge which has a reputation as a weak PrC will eventually pass it.
A witch without hexes is still a better option to me.
Someone could possible use traits and spell perfection to really push the metamagic aspect, but that would result in a cookie-cutter build.
Most metamagic builds are able to cut down metamagic cost and still push up to 9th level slots. This class does not have 9th level slots so a dedicated 9th caster will still be very close to it. I don't expect for it to be as good as a full caster, but it should pull ahead in that area.
I noticed that it gets a lot of spells per day, but running out of spells tends to stop being a problem before 10th level. By 7th it is normally a non-issue in my experience.
If you want the class to rely only on magic, and not BAB then it needs another function.
Does dual casting not let it outpace the prestige class?
Spell blending is suppose to help cover the DC gap caused by less spell levels and split slots.
Does dual casting not let it outpace the prestige class?
Spell blending is suppose to help cover the DC gap caused by less spell levels and split slots.
It starts out ahead, but the thing about MT is that while it starts out really weak it actually becomes decent later on. Somewhere past level 12 IIRC, but that might be ok.
Being able to cast two spells is good, but it is also a good way to burn through spells, and two lower level spells don't generally do as much good as a higher level spell.
I am going off of my experience with a mystic theurge and also a 3.X Monster manual 2 creature that could cast 6 levels worth of spells as one standard action. Unless it was casting magic missile it was normally better to just use a higher level spell. <---Just so you know I am not 100% theorycrafting, and I am using real game experience.
I have it set up so the second spell doesn't consume a slot. At 14 it improves to just one level lower and at 20 you can cast equal levels.
The catch is one spell has to be arcane while the other is divine (or vice versa).
Versatile Magic is suppose to make casting flexible enough that when combo'd with dual casting and free meta magic, that it should be able to keep pace.
@Cyrad
I do want the class to mainly be about spellcasting like any other fullcaster. I added things like channel energy and wizard bonus feat to hopefully expand what the class is doing for the character.
The class still needs a sustainable contribution to their party. Even 9-level spellcasters have them. The cleric gets domains, can fight due to their BAB and proficiencies, and use channel energy. The wizard gets a familiar and arcane school powers. Sorcerer gets bloodline powers. Arcanists have exploits. Witches have hexes.
Giving them something to do also would let you reduce their ridiculous amount of spell slots. Seriously, they get more spells than a sorcerer!
Their bonus feat progression is also pretty fast.
Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope,...
@Cyrad
I do not follow logic behind advocating for more sustain and less spell slots. Could you explain what nuance I am missing?
@Goth Guru
I am unable to address this concern.
@Cyrad
I do not follow logic behind advocating for more sustain and less spell slots. Could you explain what nuance I am missing?
All spellcasters have -- what I call -- "sustainable contribution." They have some way of contributing to a fight even if the player does not want to (or cannot) cast spells. This allows the class to feel more consistently useful and fun without greatly affecting their power level. Giving them more spell slots, on the other hand, would give them a lot more power.
Sustainable contribution usually takes the form of combat prowess or low power abilities with a high number of uses per day. Wizards and sorcerers get school powers and bloodline powers. At later levels, the 1st level powers quickly become less useful as the spellcaster gains spell levels. At these higher levels, wizards and sorcerers start using their low level spell slots as their sustainable contribution since they will have many of them.
Witches have a much more powerful sustainable contribution (hexes) at the cost of a weaker spell list than the wizard and a much greater achilles heel.
6-level spellcasters have sustainable contribution in the form of their 3/4 BAB and/or class features. Bards have
Your class doesn't have any abilities like this except maybe channel energy and has a 1/2 BAB. Instead, you choose to give them WAY more spell slots per level. The consequence is that they're much more powerful without making them much more fun to play, which isn't a good thing.
I recommend having their spell progression work similar to the magus except they start with an extra spell at each new spell level. For example, at 4th level, they'd have five 0-level, four 1-level, and two 2-level spells.
Then, focus on giving them cool class features. Honestly, I've seen a lot of attempts of turning prestige spellcasting classes into full classes and this is usually where they all lack. Even if you intend them as primarily a spellcasting class, they need good class features, especially for a 6-level spellcaster. The magus is a great example of a spells-heavy 6-level spellcaster -- nearly all of their class features have to do with spellcasting. You can do the same with the mystic theurge. As a hybrid arcane/divine spellcaster, you have a huge design space to work with.
We'll have to agree to disagree, because I designed this class precisely not to have a 6th caster that is mainly or significantly not casting.
You are over estimating the spell slot advantage
Base slots goes: 60 this class, 36 universalist wizard, 45 school wizard, 54 sorcerer
Bonus spell estimate: 24 this class, 15 normal fullcasters.
So this class has 65% more slots than a universalist wizard, 40% more than a school wizard, 22% more than a sorcerer. Yes the class has more spell slots, it's suppose to. It has to split it's slots between arcane and cleric spells (to make the most of it's class features) which fill pretty different roles.
22% more spell slots than the spellcasting class whose main advantage is having lots of spell slots is very significant.
As I tried to explain, all spellcasting classes need something to do other than spellcasting. Even the wizard has cool features beyond just casting spells. You could give them features related to spellcasting. This isn't 3.5e where you can just give a class some spells or bonus feats and call it a day. Classes need more than that.
But your class doesn't have anything interesting. It's boring. Your class can be many things, but it should never be boring.
Haha ok. So you don't like it, but you don't like it for it's core idea. Sooo that's not really a criticism I will address beyond what I already added.
Class has features at every level, you just don't like it because none of the features are worthless SLAs that you never touch again after early levels. This class actually uses it's class features. I don't think that is a problem.