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Yeah - I'll put another suggestion of Slayer down. It's not quite as simple to play as the fighter since you have Studied Target & want to flank for Sneak Attack, but other than that it's a pretty standard martial.
It looks like the group could use someone with decent skills as well - which the Slayer does pretty well.
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ANother Vote for Slayer then Ranger
I like slayer for the same reason I like Ranger
Combat feats to skip pre-reqs Like DEX.
Slayer adds more feats through Rogue Combat feats as well. So it is far superior IMO than the ranger. But Ranger is not far behind in terms of power at all.
Those will be the best 2 classes to choose from.
Slayers are awesome. You can do so much for so little investment.
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I just realized that the slayer can still pick a ranger combat style. We haven't played Pathfinder since late 2014 and I don't remember that class.
The last thing I played was a switch hitter ranger and I really wasn't having fun with it. I also had a two handed falchion fighter at the same time and it blew the pants off the ranger character I had which is why I'm reluctant to make another ranger class. I guess I'm just afraid I won't have enough to hit bonuses when I try to TWF with my sword and shield and go for bashes and what not.
First off I'd like to say that Sword and Board TWF is different than TWF with 2 actual weapons.
On either build GTWF is a straight TRAP feat.
But on a Sword and Board You get extra attacks via:
Shield Slam, Bashing Finish, and Two weapon Rend (Level 12 which you wont see prolly)
Improved TWF is not really a High priority at all because the negatives to hit. You can easily get by without it or you can take it if you have a free feat and qualify.
On TWF with 2 weapons your attacks/damage will come from:
Improved TWF, Double Slice, Two Weapon rend (Level 12 which you wont see prolly), Improved critical + High critical weapons (kukris), and other feats that work on BOTH weapons (Weapon Focus)
Slightly different Feats fuel the builds. But always remember GTWF is a TRAP. STR always tends to be better than Dex in TWF builds. And lastly do not feel rushed into ITWF. Just cause you can take it @ 6th level does not mean it is the best 6-7th level feat. Taking a -5 with a +6 BaB is still going to miss...A LOT. So sometimes it is better to save taking it till later when you can actually hit your target more regularly.
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I know GTWF is a waste and since we're only going to 8 at the most ITWF will be the highest I get, if at all.
Wasn't sure what you knew. I am making the statement incase you didn't or anyone else who later reads this Thread for info on Sword and Board or TWF.
But if your going to Level 7-8 I would not get it myself. I'd Grab up Shield Master for Sure tho. Rangers/Slayers get it 5 Levels earlier than any other class. That is HUGE!!!!
Here is how I would Shell up my build.
Traits: Armor Expert- (cause ACP sucks and shield bring extra ACP)
Carefully Hidden- +1 Will saves AND a +2 trait bonus to saving throws versus divination effects.
Feats:
Human: Improved Shield Bash
1: Power Attack
2: Two Weapon Fighting (Ranger Combat Style)
3:
4:
5:
6: Shield Master (Ranger Combat Style)
7: Shield Slam
Possible Other feats:
Improved and Greater Bull Rush- Will help that Shield Slam later and allow you to use Environments to your advantage. Really helps if your Wizard/Arcane guy is working tatics with you. Nothing like pushing Mobs into Create Pits, Walls, and off cliffs. I do love a wizard who uses area control spells like create pit, grease, wall of blindness ect ect. Greater BUll Rush will allow your Team mates to get in more AoO as you push the enemy around the battlefield.
Toughness- Can't go wrong with more HP
Dodge- Like Toughness AC is always good. But when it comes to AC feats Dodge> Improved NA > Shield Focus.
Iron Will- Your weakest Save. You can do with a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone + Wayfinder for consent mental protection from evil effect to really help.
Extra Traits- You can do a lot with some good choices.
Furious Focus or Weapon Focus- Some People Like Furious focus and some people prefer Weapon Focus. I personally Like Weapon focus as it applies to CMB and helps on the Iterative. But in reality if your constantly moving and only getting 1 attack a round the Furious Focus tends to pay off more. Really this is a play style/player choice here.
Blind Fight- When lighting, Fogs, and Concealment become problems this tends to be a great answer.
Deflect/Snatch arrow- I have a friend when he DMs expect Archers on a regular. IDK if your DM shares the love for archers but if he is like one of mine this can save you lots of HP. If your running Stock APs or Adventures it is less useful.
Teamwork Feats- If your playing with a friend who LOVES to flank with you...you two can not go wrong with Outflank. It will really help your to Hit.
Cleave/Cleaving Finish- I hate Cleave but I have to give props to Cleaving Finish allowing you to Clear Mooks faster. Some people really like Cleave...I say its useless past 6 unless you snag up cleaving finish. Since your not going past level 7-8 this is not as bad of an investment as if you were going into high levels.
Cornugon Smash- God do I LOVE this feat. FREE action. Studied Target Gives bonus to Intimidate. This feat alone is enough to build around. It would be a nice little capstone ability if you go to 8. Grab it through Rogue Talent. If you know for 100% surety you was going to Level 8 it might even be worth taking the human alternate racial for SKill focus at 1, 8, and 16th level. Grabbing SKill focus Intimidate + C. Smash can do a TON of work. if you go further with Intimidating Prowess you can be scaring even the nastiest of creatures. But if you are only for sure going to 7 then this feat is not really going to be as helpful.
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Sadly I don't know if 8 is guaranteed. Also the DM is saying no traits allowed.
Ouch 15 PB and no traits...he must not like you guys lol.
But the traits are doable without and then just ignore the C. Smash option and Grab Iron will for sure to help your worst save. The other 2 feats are purely open to what ever you think would be best for this campaign.
This is why I gave you a shell instead of a full build...I didn't know exactly what is available to be taking.
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Yeah that's cool I appreciate it. Our DM is more of a roleplay than rollplay type. We're going for a second campaign in a world that was established during our very first campaign where I played my falchion fighter. He doesn't like things being too optimized or OP and won't hesitate to ban or nerf things he thinks are too good, all in his right just to be clear. I'm not salty about it or anything.
Ugh - show him the Stormwind fallacy.
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I'm going to have to read that because I've never heard of it lol. He might have considering half of us have been playing since ADND and the rest of us basically started a couple years ago with Pathfinder.Yeah that's cool I appreciate it. Our DM is more of a roleplay than rollplay type. We're going for a second campaign in a world that was established during our very first campaign where I played my falchion fighter. He doesn't like things being too optimized or OP and won't hesitate to ban or nerf things he thinks are too good, all in his right just to be clear. I'm not salty about it or anything.Ugh - show him the Stormwind fallacy.
I still stand by the argument that this is a fundamental difference between old school (basic D&D: 1 race/class, AD&D: very limted multi-classing) vrs new school (I buy a book and there is a class in their and I want it gimmie gimmie). The trend I see is old school = roleplayers, new school = optomizers.
Note to New school people: Don't listen to what you hear, you aren't a dork if you roleplay. It is ok to indulge in what D&D is all about, roleplay. If you try it and have a good DM, I guarantee you'll have a blast and won't care so much about optomizing. Okay, that's it.
I'm hereby proposing a new logical fallacy. It's not a new idea, but maybe with a catchy name (like the Oberoni Fallacy) it will catch on.
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa.
Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game.
Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse roleplayer if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically roleplayed better than an optimized one, and vice versa.
(I admit that there are some diehards on both sides -- the RP fanatics who refuse to optimize as if strong characters were the mark of the Devil and the min/max munchkins who couldn't RP their way out of a paper bag without setting it on fire -- though I see these as extreme examples. The vast majority of people are in between, and thus the generalizations hold. The key word is 'automatically')
Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's gameplay. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Roleplaying deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other.
Claiming that an optimizer cannot roleplay (or is participating in a playstyle that isn't supportive of roleplaying) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
How does this impact "builds"? Simple.
In one extreme (say, Pun-Pun), they are thought experiments. Optimization tests that are not intended to see actual gameplay. Because they do not see gameplay, they do not commit the fallacy.
In the other extreme, you get the drama queens. They could care less about the rules, and are, essentially, playing free-form RP. Because the game is not necessary to this particular character, it doesn't fall into the fallacy.
By playing D&D, you opt in to an agreement of sorts -- the rules describe the world you live in, including yourself. To get the most out of those rules, in the same way you would get the most out of yourself, you must optimize in some respect (and don't look at me funny; you do it already, you just don't like to admit it. You don't need multiclassing or splatbooks to optimize). However, because it is a role-playing game, you also agree to play a role. This is dependent completely on you, and is independent of the rules.
And no, this isn't dependent on edition, or even what roleplaying game you're doing. If you are playing a roleplaying game with any form of rules or regulation, this fallacy can apply. The only difference is the nature of the optimization (based on the rules of that game; Tri-Stat optimizes differently than d20) or the flavor of the roleplay (based on the setting; Exalted feels different from Cthulu).
Conclusion: D&D, like it or not, has elements of both optimization AND roleplay in it. Any game that involves rules has optimization, and any role-playing game has roleplay. These are inherent to the game.
They go hand-in-hand in this sort of game. Deal with it. And in the name of all that is good and holy, stop committing the Stormwind Fallacy in the meantime.
Originally posted by Tempest Stormwind
It's something I combat a lot in pathfinder and on the Forums.
You also will run into a lot of people who will shun optimizers and still turn around and ask Optimizers for help on their builds. THen turn around and say "That's too strong or I'm not willing to be that strong"
But I believe in this Fallacy as for the past 2 years I see it on almost daily basis.
I believe it should be noted the Slayer may not select the Slayer Talent "Ranger Combat Style" to select multiple ranger combat styles. The talent specifically states "At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list. At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list." (Emphasis mine.)
This means if you take RCS: TWF at level 2 (choosing from Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash, Quick Draw, and Two-Weapon Fighting feats), then takes RCS again at level 6, they may now choose from Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense feats. Taking RCS again at level 10 would now be allowed to choose from Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Rend feats.
You could not choose RCS: TWF at level 2, then RCS: W&S. Just something to be sure to note.
That said, since TWF is on the Weapon and Shield list, just make sure your GM is aware that you are taking the Weapon and Shield style, and not the Two-Weapon Fighting style. That may seem like it should be blatantly obvious, but it forced me to look up both the Slayer Talent and the Ranger Fighting Style options, so never assume something is completely obvious. ;)
Another great shield fighting option is the Shield Champion Brawler. It's Captain America in Pathfinder. It may not be what you're looking for, but I've played one and they are fun and full of flavor. It looks like Paizo must have errata'd up the rules discrepancies with this archetype, so you shouldn't have anything to worry about.
For real Shield Champion shenanigans, take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Throwing Shield at level 5 to get a 20 ft range, and try to get any feats and/or enchantments that extend range. Carry two go those suckers and get two free attacks (by RAW) every round. Distance Thrower reduces range penalties by 2, so eliminates your first two range increment penalties (Far Shot is free). A +1 Heavy Throwing Shield of Distance can now be thrown 120 ft with no penalties! Boom! Just don't throw before level 5.
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I guess now I have to figure out how to stat myself. I just did this as a starting point;
16 strength
14 dexterity
12 constitution
10 intelligence
10 wisdom
8 charismaI assume I would put my racial bonus to strength to knock that up to 18 and make my rolls a little better.
I'd Swap Dex and Con. Since your going to be in medium armor+shield your going to want the +1 HP each level difference. Also typically Fortitude tends to be one of the bigger saves to be making levels 1-7. Reflex happens but can be soaked up with HP. Will saves do happen so pick up Iron Will. But the Will saves Pre 7 tend to not be as severe as the effects of failing a Fort save.
Make sure to spend your gold as a thrifty shopper. I can not stress this enough about a 15 point buy character. If they get behind where the game assumes a character has certain items then your chance of death skyrockets.
Edit:
Basically this is How I'd be Building him based off what you have told me thus far.
15 PB Human:
Str: 18 (after +2), Dex: 12, Con: 13 (@ 4 +1 here), Int: 10, Wisdom: 12, Cha: 8
Feats:
Human: Power Attack
1: Toughness
2: Two Weapon Fighting (Ranger Combat Style)
3: Improved Shield Bash
4: Combat Trick- Improved Bull Rush
5: Iron Will
6: Shield Master (Ranger Combat Style)
7: Shield Slam
Weapon Wise I personally would use a Scimitar and A spiked shield to start. I personally would work towards either a +1 Adamantine Scimitar or a Bloodletting Kukri. It would prolly fall into your price range towards the end of the campaign. But Pair it with a Keen edge spell and you will be getting the effect about 1 out of every 3 swings. I would not worry about special armor materials and just use your 7 skill points a level to overcome ACP for skill checks.
It's really too bad your GM isn't allowing any traits. The Shield-Trained trait would allow you to treat your heavy shield as a light shield, and Shield Bearer grants a +1 damage bonus with shield bash attacks (as well as a 1/day free action AC bonus for an adjacent ally).
The stats look pretty good, as presented by Fruian. I'm not a big fan of many caster players. In my experience, only Clerics seem to do any sort of party buffing most of the time. Sorcerers are the worst, generally focusing on damage output. I'm assuming they are going Draconic bloodline primarily for the +1/die damage boost. If that's the case, they should go Arcanist and take the Bloodline Development exploit. At a maximum of level 8, the claws and draconic resistance are weak sauce compared to some of the exploits that could be had, as well as the ability to have an unlimited selection of spells. This character would be a lot more versatile for your sorcerer player.
Things the "squishies" need to keep in mind. Keeping your meat shields from falling down is winning. Keeping them difficult to hit/hurt is even more winning. Proactive buffs are better than reactive life support.
Just some thoughts.
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I probably wouldn't bother with Weapon Focus since it won't apply to both weapons.
As for light vs heavy shield - would your GM allow you to take the Extra Traits feat? If so - taking it for Shield-Trained and the +1 Will save instead of Iron Will so that you can use a one-handed weapon and a heavy shield.
If your GM won't allow that, I'd stick with heavy spiked shield & gladius. The damage on full attacks will be about the same as light shield & longsword, but you gain the +1 AC. On the negative, it'd be 1 less damage on a standard attack, but -1 damage for +1 AC isn't a bad trade anyway.
Also - as a quick pointer - I'd go with four-mirror armor to start. With your Dex you get as much out of it as a breastplate, but it's considerably cheaper at level 1. (though it has slightly more ACP - so you'll want to upgrade to a breastplate when you get masterwork)
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I don't have any say on what the others do besides my own opinion but the player who is playing the sorcerer likes dragons and according to the DM, doesn't need much reason to try and incorporate dragons into his characters. The last character he played in anything D&D related (we last played 4th edition before we switched over to Shadowrun for quite a while) was a dragon-born leader type character.
As for my weapon, it makes sense based on his background and origin to use scimitars so I'm going to stick with that. Though I remember that Shield Master gets rid of TWF penalties for the shield. But I would still take a negative to my main hand for using a one handed weapon in my off hand right?
I will be honest there is nothing wrong with a dragon disciple (or straight Draconic sorcerer) if the player knows what they are doing. I played a Dragon Disciple and absolutely love the first 4-8 levels of the PrC. The main key is spell selection to stat arrangement. I personally like Caster based DD that can go melee if pushed into a corner but "doing melee" means transforming into a dragon and tearing things to shreds with your attacks. The early levels is just played like a typical caster. You just have to rely on your team. Also 15 PB is not bad when going Dragon Disciple cause of the +4 Str, + NA, +2 Con, +2 Int, d12 HD....adds some real bonuses that will push him closer to the front lines.
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As for my weapon, it makes sense based on his background and origin to use scimitars so I'm going to stick with that. Though I remember that Shield Master gets rid of TWF penalties for the shield. But I would still take a negative to my main hand for using a one handed weapon in my off hand right?
Shield Master gets rid of ALL of the TWF fighting penalties. So if you use a gladius until level 6 when you get Shield Master, you can then switch over to a scimitar and take no penalties.
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First swing with my main hand would be at +6, strength would add +4, let's say I have a +1 weapon, so that's +11 to hit on my main hand. Off hand, it would be +6, +2 for half strength, let's say I have a +1 shield enhancement which Shield Master would add to the attack, so a total of +9 overall on the offhand swing with a heavy shield?
Both would be at +11 assuming those stats/gear. The 1/2 STR bonus only applies to the damage, not the accuracy.
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As for my weapon, it makes sense based on his background and origin to use scimitars so I'm going to stick with that. Though I remember that Shield Master gets rid of TWF penalties for the shield. But I would still take a negative to my main hand for using a one handed weapon in my off hand right?Shield Master gets rid of ALL of the TWF fighting penalties. So if you use a gladius until level 6 when you get Shield Master, you can then switch over to a scimitar and take no penalties.
Since when does shield master apply to all attack rolls? Last time I checked it removed penalties on attack rolls made with a shield, so if you're using 2 shields, you don't take twfing penalties, but sword and shield would still take a penalty on the sword attack.
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Conjoy - that build is illegal. You need a 13 STR for Power Attack. Plus the first level would be TERRIBLE - with a total of -1 to hit without even using the illegal PA.
Tower Shields are pretty weak in Pathfinder. Not to mention that the tower shield & kikko armor alone put the character into heavy encumbrance.
The damage is also pretty weak-sauce.
To be perfectly honest, if you're going to level 8, it's not much worth it to do a shield fighting build.
You're better off going as someone who alternates between Sword and board, and 2h'ing a weapon when AC isnt' as important.
I'd just use a darkwood buckler (or mithral), so you can get the Shield's AC bonus when you want it, or 2h a longsword when you don't need it, and pretty much drop the shield bashing idea, since it will only be effective for 2 levels at best.
==Aelryinth
This group is screaming out for a Cleric/Inquisitor/Warpriest. Depending how much armour you want these classes can get very tanky with the right spell, furthermore your party is in need of divine power.
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Sorry to necrobump my topic but I was basically going to go with the build Fruian posted earlier in this topic but then I got to thinking that maybeDouble Slice might be worth subbing in for something else, just for the increased damage for the offhand, but that requires 15 Dex. I was wondering if it might be worth it to do something like this stat-wise to be able to afford it. Keep in mind it's a 15 point buy;
15 str (+1 at level 4, +2 racial for 17 starting)
15 dex
12 con (yeah it's a little less health which is part of the reason I'm wondering if it's worth it)
10 int
10 wis
8 chaOverall my will save would be lower and my HP would also be lower but I'd be able to afford Double Slice. I get the feeling this isn't a good trade but I still have a week to set it up.
I have always read Double Slice is not worth it as a feat till you are at a 22+ str. Since your on a 15pb a 22 str and 15 dex will be hard to pull off so I did not mention it. I tend to think of Double slice as Two weapon Rend Pre-req as well and you were not getting that high up there. Your more than welcome to try it. If you want more OH damage then instead of Investing in your Armor put it towards your shield. Once shield Master kicks in you will be hitting more and doing more damage. I recommend a +1 Bashing Shield w/ shield spike (makes your shield a 1d8+1 OH weapon). If you can afford more +s then go with it.
But thanks for the Update. The community loves to hear how things turned out in actual play.