shadow metamagic question

[Ridiculon]

So if you combine Umbral spell and Shadow Grasp metamagic on an Arcane Mark spell (and use it on a pebble or something) it creates a permanent 10' emanation of darkness and entanglement aura.

If you have 3 or 4 such objects in one square does a creature entering the radius of effect have to make 3 or 4 reflex saves?

[Tinalles]

Shadow Grasp only works on spells that have an area of effect. Arcane Mark does not have an "Area" line in its spell description; it affects a touched creature or object.

Therefore Arcane Mark is not compatible with Shadow Grasp, and the situation with multiple arcane marks emanating entangling darkness in one square should never arise.

But it sounds as though a GM has already allowed this to occur. In that case, well, the question boils down to:

"Do I want my players to have to roll 4 times and take the worst roll, or do I want my players to roll once against a harder DC?"

I would go with once versus a higher DC. Say, +1 DC for each spell in the square, with a maximum of +5 because arcane marks must fit within 1 square foot.

Making multiple rolls and taking the worse would make this tactic overpowered. Also, all those saves would take additional time; I'd rather make one and move on with the turn.

[Ridiculon]

does shadow grasp not combine with umbral spells? the umbral spell metamagic gives it an area of effect (and the darkness descriptor)

this hasnt been approved or anything, i was just assuming they would combine

[Ridiculon]

anybody know if these are supposed to combine like this?

[Schrödinger's Dragon]

Ridiculon wrote:

anybody know if these are supposed to combine like this?

The darkness shed by the subject of an Umbral Spell is different than the spell itself having an area of affect. By RAW I don't think it would work with Arcane Mark, but it's the sort of thing you might be able to get your DM to approve. Assuming they do rule that applying Umbral Spell does make your spell count as an area spell, I believe it would work. I don't think it's completely unreasonable to say they do work together like that anyway.

Even if your DM is a stickler for RAW and doesn't let you apply Umbral Spell to Arcane Mark, you could always use this trick with other spells (although personally, if you just want to entangle enemies, I would favor Rime Spell since it's only one feat and a +1 level adjustment).

On the subject of how to handling the saving throw, I would personally call for only one save at a raised DC rather than several saves at a lower DC, partially just because it's cleaner and requires less rolling. It's similar to how multiple doses of poison being combined are handled.

[Ridiculon]

makes sense, i'm interested in this feat line mostly for the flavor on a shadow patron witch im playing, some of the later spells need to be cast in shadows for the full effect, and the combination of a permanent duration darkness aura + entanglement that doesn't affect my own character seemed neat

[Schrödinger's Dragon]

Fortunately, darkness and cold go hand-in-hand, so some cold magic would probably still be fitting in flavor for a witch with the shadow patron. That said, if you're looking for ways to make areas of shadow (aside from just casting spells like Darkness yourself) there are a few items like a Bag of Shadow Clouds or Rod of Shadows that could be effective-if-pricey options.

[Ridiculon]

yeah, rod of shadows is definitely on the list (its one of the very few ways to get the "see in darkness" sense without being a tiefling), but as you mentioned its pretty pricey. i also have access to the shadow plane supplementary bestiary that has rules for shadow elementals, and i'll get a shadow elemental improved familiar which also has a permanent darkness aura.

really there are more things to combine these feats with, but the first thing that came to mind was the ability to have my witch's written name literally cause the room to get darker (and also be a mild "curse" on anyone who reads it)