Why no love for cambions?

[Douglas Muir 406]

Cambions have been around since first edition -- Iuz and Acererak were cambions, back in the day -- and the Bestiary 5 has given them a nice makeover, as you can see if you click right here. But they don't seem to be getting much love on these forums yet.

A couple of quick thoughts.

-- By eliminating the +8 BAB requirement, Sadistic Strike makes Improved Critical available to lower level characters. So a relatively low-level cambion fighter or rogue could be a deadly critfisher. I suspect you could get some freaky crit builds with a dedicated cambion fighter.

-- Cambions get bonuses to all their stats, so they're an interesting starting point if you want to build really MADdy NPCs to throw at your PCs. The sinfrenzies don't scale directly with class level, and their duration is based on total hit dice, so they actually make dipping, multiclassing and shifting to PrCs easier.

-- The sinfrenzies aren't all that powerful, but they're nicely flavorful -- and they do make a difference at low levels, where another die of SA damage or +2 on favored enemies can make a real difference. Paradoxically, this means cambions are actually more frightening as opponents for low level characters. A bunch of 1st or 2nd level PCs will really have to worry about the 4th level cambion ranger -- +5 attack / +4 damage plus Improved Critical means the cambion can easily one-shot any PC who's a favored enemy. The group of orcs led by the 3rd level cambion bard will also be pretty alarming, as they're all getting +2 / +2 the moment she opens her mouth.

-- SR doesn't scale either. (Tangent: I wish Paizo would come up with a rule for that.) So, at low levels a cambion is dangerously resistant to the PCs' magic. At high levels SR 13 can be pretty much ignored, of course. Otherwise, three nice resistances at 10 and, ooh, telepathy 30'.

What else? Well, it's left unclear how you'd distinguish a cambion from a tiefling. I mean, the cambion is an outsider, and they vary less in appearance, but I suspect you'd need a specialist (i.e., a DC 20+ Knowledge: Planes check) to spot the difference.

Anyway. These guys seem interesting enough; has anyone done much with them?

Doug M.

[Snowlilly]

I've only used Cambions as NPCs, they are overpowered for a PC race.

[DM_Blake]

Way way back, I think 2nd edition but it might have been 1st, the official developers produced a splat book that mad cambions a PC race. They were about 37x more powerful than elves which was saying a lot back then. So everybody played them. I went to a new gaming group with a friend and there were 6 players plus the DM. I was the only person NOT playing a cambion - but it was just an ordinary campaign in the forgotten realms. I would have been fine with 5 cambions in a Planescape game or some such thing, but 5/6 of our level 1 characters walking around Waterdeep were, for some inexplicable reason, cambions.

They were way OP. Way way way OP.

I haven't forgiven cambions yet. Heck, I'm barely over the drow fiasco after the Drizzzzzt books got so popular.

That's why I have no love for them...

[TaigaKirdApe]

I re-skin them and use them in my Abyssal campaign. They're sort of the every-day citizen of the Midnight Isles.

[Casual Viking]

It's a fairly decent design for sword-fodder, but it's terrible for interesting characters. The bland, generic evil of Sadistic Strike, combined with the worst ideas of mainstream Christianity, do not appeal to me.

[DM_Blake]

TaigaKirdApe wrote:

I re-skin them and use them in my Abyssal campaign.

I just skin them, then eat the crunchy bits inside.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Well, they start at CR 2 now. I haven't run the numbers, but yeah -- obviously they're OP for a PC race. Bonuses to every stat, bunch of immunities, SR... I don't recall how Paizo handles playing monsters as races, but that'd be a thing here.

The 2e cambion came late in 2e when things were getting very random. (Remember, the first few years of 2e had no demons at all! Thanks, concerned mothers of America.)

Doug M.

[lemeres]

DM_Blake wrote:

Way way back, I think 2nd edition but it might have been 1st, the official developers produced a splat book that mad cambions a PC race. They were about 37x more powerful than elves which was saying a lot back then. So everybody played them. I went to a new gaming group with a friend and there were 6 players plus the DM. I was the only person NOT playing a cambion - but it was just an ordinary campaign in the forgotten realms. I would have been fine with 5 cambions in a Planescape game or some such thing, but 5/6 of our level 1 characters walking around Waterdeep were, for some inexplicable reason, cambions.

They were way OP. Way way way OP.

I haven't forgiven cambions yet. Heck, I'm barely over the drow fiasco after the Drizzzzzt books got so popular.

That's why I have no love for them...

Well, they are like rats- if you have one, then there are 4 that you aren't seeing. And considering incubi, they probably aim for the same 2,000 per year number that rats get.

[Gilliby Ban]

I'm not sure I understand how to use them as an NPC. The Sinfrenzy Special Ability indicates an ability based on class, but I don't see a class for the standard Cambion. Do I need to add class levels to the standard CR2 cambion to gain the special ability? If so, can I even use the CR2 cambion as is, and would I just ignore that special ability in that case. Any advise would be great. Thanks.

[Algarik]

Gilliby Ban wrote:

I'm not sure I understand how to use them as an NPC. The Sinfrenzy Special Ability indicates an ability based on class, but I don't see a class for the standard Cambion. Do I need to add class levels to the standard CR2 cambion to gain the special ability? If so, can I even use the CR2 cambion as is, and would I just ignore that special ability in that case. Any advise would be great. Thanks.

Yeah they are totally usuable as they are, Sinfrenzy has it's base bonus and extra bonus for Cambion with class level.

Sinfrenzy wrote:

Every cambion carries an excessive capacity for one of the seven classical sins, determined at the moment of the cambion’s birth and depending on the nature of his humanoid parent’s greatest sin. Once per day for a number of rounds equal to his Hit Dice, a cambion can embrace his sin and enter a frenzied state as a free action. While a cambion is in this frenzy, his land speed increases by 10 feet and he gains a +1 bonus on Reflex saves and attack rolls. These bonuses do not stack with those granted by haste or similar effects, but if the cambion has at least 1 level in the class listed for his specific sin, the sinfrenzy grants an additional effect.

If you're looking for how to improve monster with class level, check the Monter Advancement rules.

[Gilliby Ban]

Perfect. Thanks you.
I think I missed this sentence

"...but if the cambion has at least 1 level in the class listed for his specific sin, the sinfrenzy grants an additional effect."

That makes more sense.