Behold, another full bab mage knight/magusy sort of class.
This dude started out as an 'Eldritch Knight' Fighter archetype/variant with minor casting and paired wizard school combos, before going way out into the weeds.
Feel free to rip it apart - criticism appreciated (though preferably more specific than 'I hate it' or 'x is way too powerful ;P) - all comments are appreciated, but in particular I am looking for:
- feedback on existing abilities, balance, adjustments to features
- brainstorms for Blade Schools, 'Arcanas', missing Arcane Assault Powers
- general feel
- NAMES! Class name? 'Arcana' names? 'Blade School' (in general), or names/themes for specific blade schools.
- whatever else
Thanks!
It definitely feels like a first draft or part of one. The class has such a mixture of abilities and talents that it lacks cohesion. And then you throw in magus class features into the mix.
However, the gem of the class is Blade School. The idea of there being martial disciplines based on the schools of magic really intrigues me.
If I were designing this class, I'd focus on the Blade School class feature to make it fun and interesting and polished. From there, I'd build the class around it and only resort to talents and bonus feats to round out the class.
FORMATTING
You need to do some housekeeping, so this will be easier to read. For example, in the Skills section, the title should be in bold but the skill names should not. Some words are underlined and have a broken web link. The middle of your table has some things in bold. Bonus Feats is entirely in bold. The wording is clumsy or unclear in many places.
INTRODUCTION
Write something about the class, even if it is three sentences. Something that will help the reader understand your idea.
SKILLS
I would drop Perception and add a couple of Int-based skills.
PROFICIENCIES
You should say that he is also proficient in light armor. Look at the ranger or barbarian for how to word it.
BLADE SCHOOL
The name is fine (but not great). Maybe something will come to you. I really love the concept though. I'll have to see how it plays out later.
BONUS FEAT
I think you should drop the level 1 feat and drop in a unique class feature instead. Since you've got the blade school power, it doesn't have to be strong, but it should be something that all blade knights can use regardless of school.
BLADE POWER
Since it appears on your table, it should also appear in writing. It can be brief, as long as it is clear.
CANTRIPS
I don't see this on the table.
FORCEFUL CASTER
Is there a limit on uses per day? This seems like a very potent ability to have at-will.
ARCANE ASSAULT
Needs more work. Each ability is kind of too different. For example, the necromancy power is almost always useful, whereas the abjure toon and evocation abilities would not stack with the abilities of certain magic items he is likely to have.
SPELLWOVEN STRIKES
Interesting variant on Spell Combat
Thank you guys for the feedback.
@Cyrad
I definitely agree it's pretty rough - what specifically do you think lack's cohesion - are you specifically referring to the talents & feats?
[Ramble Ahead]
W/r/t throwing in magus class features - you're referencing the Arcanas? The only directly 'magus' thing is an optional spellstrike, though Spellwoven strikes is 'spell combat'-like.
I agree blade schools are the core part of the class - my only concern there (beyond getting them balanced, interested, flavorful, etc) is tying too many features into your blade school.
As I see it, the class has ~2.5-4 core/original abilities, depending on how you count: Arcane Assault, Blade School (+Blade powers), and minor spell casting. Bonus Feats, Spells, Forceful Caster, and Spellwoven Strikes are all just buffs to make those other features more effective. Really arcane assault is just a buff to incentivize/synergize casting the spells you do have in combat, but as it's a little more central to other features, and a little more complex I'd count it as core.
Now, whether they should have talents at all is a good question - on the one hand, classes with multiple axes of customization are, I think usually more interesting. On the other hand talents can just be a hodgepodge of abilities, and people usually just take the best ones anyway.
Blade schools could get some 'revelation'-like talents, which are specific to the Blade school or a few schools. That would tighten up the focus of a given character, and let you customize how you use your blade school, but it would take away an axis of customization.
@Ciaran
FORMATTING
[...]
Agreed, and sorry for the mess. I try to be a little more consistent in format, pronouns, and terms before I post something but decided to throw this out a little rare.
SKILLS
I would drop Perception and add a couple of Int-based skills.
Reasonable. Profession gone, linguistics added. I'm not sure they need more knowledges.
PROFICIENCIES
Done.
BLADE SCHOOL
The name is fine (but not great). Maybe something will come to you. I really love the concept though. I'll have to see how it plays out later.
BONUS FEAT
[...]
I've removed the bonus feats from the class entirely, as clutter - I'll consider whether I need to revise the Arcanas, or if I can replace them with a tighter class feature.
BLADE POWER
Since it appears on your table, it should also appear in writing. It can be brief, as long as it is clear.
Fair. In my defense, I structured the Blade School/Blade power language on cavalier Orders, for whom 'Order Ability' is on the table but not text.
CANTRIPS
I don't see this on the table.
Presently cantrips are not a class feature.
FORCEFUL CASTER
Is there a limit on uses per day? This seems like a very potent ability to have at-will.
It's more powerful in the abstract than in context - Minor casters invariably lag behind in the ability to get spells off. This can be fine, but I want the mage knight to be able to relevantly cast offensive spells. I would expect their DCs to be an easy 2-5 behind the curve before forceful caster. Additionally, in theory the swift action should interact with other things the MK wants to do.
It might be too powerful but atm I'm pretty comfortable with it. They can get off their few best spells with something close to the success of lazy wizard. Adding it to SLAs is possibly a bit much though - I'll have to see what SLAs they end up with.
ARCANE ASSAULT
Needs more work. Each ability is kind of too different. For example, the necromancy power is almost always useful, whereas the abjure toon and evocation abilities would not stack with the abilities of certain magic items he is likely to have.
I was thinking about this as well w/r/t Abj & Evo. My thought was it's easy enough for them to skip the RoP or Flaming sword if they're Abj/Evo. I personally like that they're different, and I'm not sure they need to be more homogeneous, but they definitely need a second look or two, and some general balancing.
SPELLWOVEN STRIKES
Interesting variant on Spell Combat
Thanks! I think it somewhat works for a more martial character. Powerful but not overpowered.
Forceful caster
Perhaps if he ends up with multiple types of swift actions, he will be forced to choose which one to use each round.
Spellstrike is the iconic magus class feature. It's what enables them to be a nova mage. Mage Knight doesn't need the magus's nova power (it's a full BAB class), so it ends up making them powerful in a way that they're already strong at. Plus, it feels wildly inappropriate to casually toss another class's primary class feature as a talent. It would be like if I made a gish class that has a talent that says "You can sneak attack as a rogue of your level."
If you want the class to have an ability to channel spells through attacks, it should be a class feature. And it doesn't have to work the same way as spellstrike.
I strongly feel spellwoven strikes should restrict to melee attacks, require you to sacrifice your highest BAB attack, and mention you can only cast 1 spell.
I don't understand blade school combinations and how they work. I'd just keep it simple -- just have a school for each school of magic. You can add specialty schools later. Keeping the options to about 7-8 also lets you focus on making each one good. Too many times I've seen people try to homebrew like 20 "bloodlines" or something. In these cases, either the design quality is all over the place or the class feature is unfinished because the homebrewer couldn't think of 7 abilities for all 20 of the "bloodlines."
Mage Knight -> Eclectic
Blade School -> Arcane Practice
Blade of (the)... -> Practitioner of (the)...BS/AP names
Yes, help naming! I'm not a big fan of Eclectic - it's euphonious but doesn't really say anything about the class. Just looking at the name I'd think they were some sort of monk/bard/rogue.
Mage Knight is fine, just boring. Mageblade I almost like, and ties into the 'Blade school' idea, but kind of sounds cheesy. Blade Adept I like and dislike for much the same reasons. Everything else I have is shitty.The BS/AP suggests are cool, but I'm not sure they work/fit for two reasons. The first is that I'm not sure they match the schools - what do Divination & Tranmutation have to do with Deities or Wards?
For the second reason, see below!
Spellstrike [...]
I'd say the ability to cast wizard spells while hitting things with a 1h or light melee weapon is the Magus "thing". Spellstrike is one of several core Magus features. What makes it iconic to the nova magus is how it relates to spell combat & their spellcasting abilities in general. The mage knight doesn't intrinisically get the same benefit from spellstrike because they are limited in their ability to cast spells at all (as minor casters); they have no arcane pool, no spell recall, and plainly just fewer spells in general - of course the class isn't done but I'd be a bit surprised to see someone pick up the mage knight more or less as it stands and say 'yeah, scimitar + shocking grasp is the way to go'.
It would be like if I made a gish class that has a talent that says "You can sneak attack as a rogue of your level."
Well, not as a rogue of your level, because Spellstrike is contingent on your ability to cast spells - it'd be like a class that gets sneak attack, but at a different progression based off their other abilities - say like a slayer.
If you want the class to have an ability to channel spells through attacks, it should be a class feature. And it doesn't have to work the same way as spellstrike.
This is a fair point though. I will think on it.
I strongly feel spellwoven strikes should restrict to melee attacks, require you to sacrifice your highest BAB attack, and mention you can only cast 1 spell.
Maybe melee attacks, certainly only one spell, definitely disagree about losing highest bab. The other variation I was considering was making it a unique full round action that let's you make 1 melee attack at your highest bab + cast a spell. My concerns there are that the ability gets worse every 5 levels, and then also disallows any other sort of full attack effects you might reasonably have or want - though maybe this is a good thing. Is ok to be able to use it with haste, or with twf (assuming you have some way of getting around needing a free hand), etc?
Consider that Magi, Warpriests, & Summoners get to break the spell action economy, while also having more spells and getting more out of them. . You could argue that that's their due as a more powerful spellcaster, or because that's their schtick, but I think that's being unfair to the minor caster. Full BAB + minor casting is strictly worse than medium bab & medium casting. It's less limited than the bloodrager, which is a point - otoh the bloodrager is kinda lame.The Mage Knight *needs* a powerful way to incorporate spellcasting into their combat routine, otherwise the class doesn't work. I think, though I've only done a little playtesting at this point, that Spellwoven strikes is definitely not OP, but only because it's in the context of someone who gets half a dozen spells a day. Do you think that seems off?
I don't understand blade school combinations and how they work. I'd just keep it simple...
Definitely, definitely agree on trying to few a few right rather than work on all 28 combinations at the same time. I disagree that it's equally good or better to just drop the combinations and do the 8 straight schools. Right now I am aiming to get a set of 4 blade schools such that all 8 schools are represented.
Sorry for the bump - just a note for anyone finding this - the link is closed as I work on revisions and clean up.