Not sure this is the place for this.
I have a DM willing to run with a fun idea. I am playing a catfolk paladin (ranged paladin arctype) who is a reformed criminal (prostitute) who is trying to reform a former friend (thug turned crime lord.)
He is LE half orc not sure the class but a crime boss. They have affection and are constantly trying to corrupt the other. For him it is a test of wills for her it is her mission. (Well as far as the game is concerned, side mission. Mostly handled durring downtime.)
She is a paladin of abadar. They talk about the economy alot and his effect on it. She has mediocer stats in all the Cha. We are playing it off as everyone thinks she is too stupid to know she is associating with evil. She is sincere in her efforts to attempt to convert. (WE are straight off Wrath of the Righteous as a group so converting evil is very on our minds. We also laughed at completing That AP without a paladin so this one was rolled.)
The status quo is interesting. She is charged with trying to bring down this organization. She feels it is too fundimental to the local economy and would ruin everyone if it was done the traditional way. So she feels the best way is try to turn the leader around to good. The leader tolerates this because "they would send someone more competant" if anything happened to her. Also the scary boss might have affection.
Well there is the setup. She really isnt the smartest. 20 cha, wis 7, int 9....so she really isnt.
So is this a do able plot or is everything outside the scope of what a paladin can do due to the code or is this a vaild interpretation?
There is always the possiblity she does fall? I know anitpaladins can happen and she trades out 1 to 1 levels. But what are the LE options?
I like the idea. The alignment mechanics are too heavily embedded in the game to ignore, but where possible I try to run games based on character motivations rather than absolute alignments and am more interested in checking a character's actions are consistent with their supposed character than fitting into one of 9 pigeon holes.
The motivations you have described for your character fit will with the lawful and good virtues of a Paladin. I am cautious on two fronts, it seems you are planning to use the too dumb angle to not see evil acts and I see that as a problem. The character is not that dumb. Int 9 roughly equates to an IQ of 95, only just below average. So you would recognise the evil act but the Wis 7 does say you might not handle it very well. Further, the too dumb line feels like a convenient cop out to allow the Paladin to keep her Paladinhood whilst she is letting evil acts occur.
To be workable I would see your character as having to do their utmost to stop or undo any evil acts the crime boss is performing. As I said above I believe playing relative alignments might help here. Your character sounds like she believes the crime boss is doing the right things but in the wrong way, so you might be 'fixing' the things he has 'forgotten' to do.
The second issue is you have been charged with bringing down the organisation. Presumably, your superiors are high level Paladins or Clerics of Abadar and they do not agree with your assessment on the economic benefit of keeping the organisation. This seems dangerously close to disobeying your superiors and not far from a breach of your code of conduct.
I would talk it over with the GM, you said he is willing. Run through a number of hypothetical scenarios and find where the boundaries are likely to be for both your actions with the crime lord and your superiors. It would be worth gaining his agreement that he warn you before you fall and/or allow you to lose and regain your powers in stages as you teeter on the edge of falling or redeeming your friend.
If you did fall the PRD is clear, you lose all your Paladin abilities.
Discuss it at length with your GM. Not us. Ask for clarifications on the 'associating with evil'. Ask what your GM's rules on redemptions are so you know you're not just trying to push a rope up a flagpole. Be familiar with Abadar's specific religious requirements and whenever you see a conflict, ask the GM to rule ahead of time.
As for falling, don't expect any favors from Lawful Evil just because you gave up your prior status. Gratitude is not their strong point.
Yeah my gm is game for this, we are talking about it alot not just for this reason but so the party isn't bored with it...it is being done offsscreen between sessions alot of the time.
My second question was more are there and prestigue/classes that might be up my ally? If she falls. The goal is she converts the bad guy but epic f### ups are frequent in our party. I like preplanning.
That sounds perfectly in line with being Lawful Good and trying to accomplish good. True, paladins are warriors and are usually more militant, but I see no conflict between the paladin creed and what your trying to accomplish. Mainly I'd just be concerned for how to do this without it turning into an RP-fest between you and the GM that leaves everyone else with nothing to do, but so long as they're interested, you've got the makings of a great story on your hands.
Discuss it at length with your GM. Not us.Yeah my gm is game for this, we are talking about it alot not just for this reason but so the party isn't bored with it...it is being done offsscreen between sessions alot of the time.
This is the only answer that matters.
More specifically, find out in advance if your GM is the "Hahahaha, I made you FALL!" kind of jerk-GM who takes special pleasure in tormenting paladin players and even more pleasure in making them fall. If he is, roll a different character; it's never fun to play a paladin with such a GM.
If he's not, then make extra sure that he's the kind of GM who will warn you "Hey, your paladin is straying from your code; you better get back on track or Abadar won't like it and you might fall." If he's that kind of GM, then you're a lucky player (judging by these forums, it seems rare) and you should embrace the paladin class and your unique RP situation and have fun with this idea.
If your GM is somewhere between those two extremes, then talk to him at length to find out where his boundaries are, and how he'll deal with them (and you) in game.
There is always the possiblity she does fall? I know anitpaladins can happen and she trades out 1 to 1 levels. But what are the LE options?
You effectively become a fighter with no bonus feats or abilities and a somewhat higher will save.
So far my DM is awesome. we have worked out the this will be an rp fest but 90% of that is down time between sessions the rest of the party is minimally effected.
So far we have in about 3 sessions worked out the specifics of the back story and set up how she going to persue his redemption.
My Dm is going to warn me. She is openning the dialog and so far the DM is also willing to give me a "touch of wiggle room" in the form of a contract. Her, her church superiors and the crime lord drafted a document saying that the crime lord may "speak freely with out her having to report his actions" if said conversations take place with in a specified room. (They picked the crime lod's bed room. The two have a physical relationship so that is not a problem.)The contract ends up being comparable to relife catholic confessional.
The church of Abadar is trying this new experimental redemption technique. The unfortunate clause her superiors added is "anything he is caught red handed for she is responsible for as well" that "he is now her charge." Rightly terrified she signed both copies. 4 signitures on 2 copies. Hers, the archbanker of Wati's, the leader of her paladin order and the crime lord. One copy in now kept in the church archives and one is kept by the crime lord.
She has to go explore another tomb before she can try to win more of the crime lord's trust.
If anyone is curious I can tell you more or keep you updated. But my DM is indulging heated moral and ethical debates. This is turning into a storytelling/acting dream.
Like i could go into explaining back story/motivations for her actions and what she uncoveres in his as she goes.
The logic proposed to the church behind this was: the crime lord before the current one (Jerg) gained his position by owerthrowning his previous employer. she too started out as an employee of the previous one (unnamed.) The overthrown was violent she died and was revived by abadar with a vision (took the campaign trait where she had been dead before with death restitances as a benifit.) ((White light and a man in golden armor with 14 golen keys on his hip his face obscured said "Your city still needs you" This being the moment she turned her life around and joined the city guard and eventually discoving the church of Abadar and joining his paladin order))
She watched the violence of one crime lord being over thrown by another and the void being filled in a matter of days, (the event above). She also watched/hear-about other organizations (durring her time working for the old crime lord)brought to justice by traditional athourities. She saw a great deal of people killed who where treated as through they mattered less due to thier proffessions. Frequently the childern of criminals or froced prostitutes where victims in these wars. Having been a prostitute herself when she was very young and literally dying durring one of these battles gives her a different view of the matter.
She saw the economic voids filled much slower over time with legitemite organsations but it being slower caused a great deal of suffering as well. Jerg is a problem because his organization is one of the biggest in the area and handles almost everytype of goods imagineable. So the loss of his resorces would cripple Wati.
So her solution is not to overthrow anyone but make the bad guy leader better. Yes they laughed at her a number of times and other members of her church underminded her attempts for there slow pace but she finally won them over.
Hence the contract. She is terrified but it is a huge victory to her and a show of trust from both groups to hear eachother out. The politics of the situation is messy. She knows Jerg is using her as his pawn but to what end? She knows the Archbanker is hoping she fails inorder to finally have an excuse to get rid of Jerg and her (she knows some embarassing secrets about him, and while she hasn't ever told anyone The Archbanker is very annoyed.) She is also terrified to let her mentor the paladin leader down because he also put his neck out for her but she has no idea how much but she suspects more than he lets on.
But so far she has Abadar's blessing and while it lasts she is going to try her best.
I am aware it sounds sketchy but we are having alot of fun seeing where it goes. Also my DM is an amazing, wonderful person and really wants to explore it too.
Glad to hear it is going well. I must admit as a GM I would have difficulty allowing the "Speak freely" clause and I would also find it difficult for the church to have a contract with a known criminal that essentially says they will turn a blind eye under a given set of circumstances.
Several years ago I was at a party where a friend of a friend was a policeman and I asked him how he was able to square off his responsibilities as a policeman with his overhearing of friends' minor criminal acts (illegal downloads, speeding etc). He said he takes the view that unless he has evidence it hasn't happened, but if he does have evidence then he is duty bound to report it. I would take that line for dealing with your relationship with the crime lord.
But as I said at the start, it's great to hear you and your GM have found a way to make the story work.