Hi all,
As an experiment, I'd love to know how you'd deal punishment to my PC's. They are about to complete the first book of RotR.
Here's what they've done:
- Wexla's brother was caught by Ven fooling around with Shayliss Vender. A fistfight ensued, and as the party was dragged down the street by the guards, they instigated a fight and Wexla ended up killing Ven Vender (by choking him to death). (Long story). The whole party was there.
- The party ran away and, as criminals on the run, cleared the caverns under the glassworks and discovered the threat to Sandpoint.
- The party was captured and imprisoned, then engineered an escape, killing several guards.
- The party hid out in the Sandpoint Hinterlands. A group of bounty hunters from Magnimar were hired to capture them. In a very close fight, the party managed to capture one of the bounty hunters while the others escaped.
- Over a period of days, the party slowly convinced the captured bounty hunter that they were trying to save Sandpoint. They let the bounty hunter go with a fresh horse and all his gear, and told him to return to tell the other bounty hunters that they needed help.
- The bounty hunter party was partially convinced.
- Goblins led another assault on Sandpoint. This time, half the town was razed and citizens started to grumble about the instability of the town. Unbeknownst to the players, the town guard was faced with the prospect of most of Sandpoint leaving the town, and it becoming a ghost town.
- Days later, three of the party members (including Wexla, Ven's murderer) returned to town. They were immediately taken in and faced a large council of important people in town, and any public who wanted to be there. The party members acknowledged they had done horrible things and should be punished for them. But they said that first they wanted to help save the town. The presentation was very convincing, and the town sent a cohort to help the party clear Thistletop. The party performed admirably, often risking their own lives to save members of the town guard.
- The party is talking about returning to Sandpoint with Nualia's head, and submitting themselves to whatever punishment they now deserve. (Wexla has completely turned a leaf character-wise. The brother he was originally protecting has died and he has gone from True Neutral to NG.) He is willing to accept whatever punishment he deserves.
QUESTION: How would you punish these people? Don't worry about plot considerations or keeping the party together - I'm cool with deviating from the AP.
Should Wexla be imprisoned for a number of years? Or should he be pardoned? Or charged with some lesser punishment?
Should the other members get a lesser sentence? They were also complicit in killing guardsmen, but didn't kill a civilian in cold blood.
Thanks! Sorry about the long post. Curious to see if anyone replies. :)
I´d think that the Magnimarian laws would probably include death sentence for murder, even more so for murdering guards on duty (upholding order and such considerations). And strangling a citizen to death is murder to me as well. That said, with the PCs already given the benefit of a doubt and justifying that by removing another threat to the town, there might be other considerations as well. I don´t see a pardon there, but you might consider something like a Weregildthere, and some sort of community service on top. This might be an opportunity to send the PCs monster hunting all over the place, to get rid of all those pesky goblins, at least for a time. And the treasures they find go into the Weregild compensation.
Clearly the PCs are a group of kill-crazy murder-hobos.
Willing to risk life and limb for the prospect of killing more.
I'd feel pretty comfortable with the local civil servants giving the death penalty to anyone who has killed town guards while escaping jail.
However, they did perform a service for the town, potentially saving them from an invasion of goblins. Perhaps it would be better if they were sent to go somewhere that they can channel their murderous impulses towards the aid of civilized people - like Fort Rannick where they can learn the importance of fighting ogres.
Or perhaps as murderers, perhaps Justice Ironbriar is interested in gathering a new recruit or three...
Thinking about that further on a metagame level, what kind of game do you and the players want to play?
That kind of behaviour seems more appropriate for evil characters, or for random folks in an anarchic, post-nuclear-war setting or something similar. (Was there a Paladin or other Lawful or Good character in the party? I guess not.)
Sure, Varisia as a whole has a frontier feel, perhaps akin to the Wild West in the early to mid 1800s. But even there, killing folks, and especially lawmen, carried severe penalties, no matter what the merits might be otherwise. So, this kind of behaviour won´t get them anywhere in an area where laws are enforced. If you let them get away with murder, they may continue that way. Even worse, the players might see this as a free-for-all style of play, where even the worst crimes have no real consequences. This makes for a very different kind of game from what seems to be intended, with evil alignments normally reserved for villains. It´s your game, of course. It might just take a strange turn there.
I´d think that the Magnimarian laws would probably include death sentence for murder, even more so for murdering guards on duty (upholding order and such considerations). And strangling a citizen to death is murder to me as well. That said, with the PCs already given the benefit of a doubt and justifying that by removing another threat to the town, there might be other considerations as well. I don´t see a pardon there, but you might consider something like a Weregildthere, and some sort of community service on top. This might be an opportunity to send the PCs monster hunting all over the place, to get rid of all those pesky goblins, at least for a time. And the treasures they find go into the Weregild compensation.
And as soon as book 2 starts, the group is beyond redemption, because who else is killing all those people if not the murderers the city let go free.
First the city uses Detect Thoughts and various other spells to determine the killers are serious about repenting. Then any member who killed someone in town (Ven, a guard) gets a Mark of Justice, maybe a geas and a weregild judgement (several thousand gp#). They are put in jail at night and put to work during the day (supervised) to pay off the weregild.
# support family + cost of all the spells used (detect thoughts, mark of justice, etc...)
I think that the real solution lies not in handing out an appropriate punishment, but in finding a way to continue the game that doesn't lead an end dangling from a hangman's rope. If you go that way, lots of the campaign is really going to fall apart at this point.
Any expected level of societal justice/retribution is likely to leave the players not to thrilled with Sandpoint.
Hook Mountain leads into Fortress by virtue of a message of: "Oh noes, the town is in danger from giants, come save it!", if in their hearts the PCs are Billy Badass Murder-hobos, that kind of message isn't much incentive to go back to Sandpoint "Sandpoint is in danger of being overrun by giants? Heh, lets wait outside town and jump the giants afterwards when they are hurt and after they loot the town."
I think the best thing to do may be to have the players sent up to Magnimar for some type of capital punishment - only to be recruited by Ironbriar. This is a last shot for things in the campaign to run closer to the storyline. Do the PCs accept and work to the downfall of Ironbriar and the cult from within, exposing the corruption and saving the mayor, perhaps throwing in the Scarlet Sun as Ironbriar eliminating competition? Great - things can get back on track, Magnimar thinks they're just misunderstood people wrongly accused by the hicks in Sandpoint.
Someone here (I forget who) was running Skinsaw in reverse, Magnimar/Cultists first, THEN Misgivings. This method could work.
Then at the end of Skinsaw, the Mayor offers them a full pardon if they'll check in on Turtleback Ferry - the people in Sandpoint won't be thrilled, but from the Mayor's point of view, "to bad".
If the PCs/Players ARE really remorseful about their behavior in Sandpoint, they'll be eager to try to clear their names when Sandpoint is threatened by giants at the beginning of Fortress.
IF ON THE OTHER HAND, the PCs don't decide to turn on Ironbriar, THEN the campaign takes a decidedly different route, Big K/Mokmurian/Barl/Lucy/Xanesha have no real opposition, and their plans go forward as THEY hope for. And YOU have an interesting set of choices in front of you. And a lot of work.
Thanks, everyone! Some great thoughts there.
A few assurances and some context:
(1) We are all having a tonne of fun. We started the campaign on a whim, as a break from other campaigns, but are becoming attached as time goes on.
(2) As I said in the initial post, there is no need to stick to the AP, but I do appreciate your collective advice on how to keep the AP going.
(3) Our group has been playing together for ~30 years, and I have been DM-ing for about that long. We're okay with going murder-hobo every once in a while. :) The battle in Sandpoint with the guards was a tonne of hilarity mostly because we haven't gone in that direction in about 20 years. We play more 'mature' now. (pfft!) But like I said, the PC's are starting to find depth in the characters and we are considering keeping the thing going.
(4) We all understand that the early actions of the party will mess up the plot line significantly. So far we're loving it though! (Yes, some party members are evil, and the group is mostly Neutral. We always have a few wildcards in our parties, and prefer it that way. But our version of 'evil' might not always be the same as what other groups imagine. Sometimes evilness doesn't manifest in choking people to death like this. This group is really interesting in that they set up to be murder hobos, but are gradually changing their ways and becoming heroes to some. There is a lot of restitution to make, though, and I don't know if some of the damage will ever be undone. This all makes for great plot though.)
...
About your suggestions:
- My Golarian might be more low-magic than others, but I don't think Geas and similar spells would be used on an unknown group of misfits from the periphery. Waste of money and magic.
I think I'll go with Lorax's idea:
Sandpoint will have mixed feelings about them - some hate the party, others see them as the town's saviours. The priest will cast a spell and determine that Wexla really is Good. This will give them a bit of creditability in Sandpoint, and give them a few more allies there.
They will be sent to Magnimar for trial, and will somehow be entangled in the plot of the Mayor and Ironbriar. The Mayor may engineer their freedom them and use them as help to uncover the cult, while keeping the threat of re-capturing them over their heads. I'll have to figure out a way of making that happen without invoking deux ex machina. The mayor will likely work through a middleman, and it will be up to the players to determine who they are working for.
So I'll work the next Book backwards in a way, and keep the players as outlaws who are on the run and simultaneously trying to clear their name. Working in Magnimar (at first) will give them some freedom from the people of Sandpoint who know them too well. And if they can endear themselves to the people in power in the big city, then Sandpoint can't do too much about it.
..
Anyways, great suggestions, everyone! Thank you.
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** spoiler omitted **
Not a bad idea... :)
I think they are beginning to emerge as heroes, but there might be a way to have them think they're being heroic but actually doing very bad things.
We'll see. It's at least one session away and you never know what the players will do before then.
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If the dog is rabid, it has to be put down. "But it stopped the serial killer!" It's still rabid, there is no cure and it has to be put down.
I don't see how anyone in Sandpoint can view the pc's, who murdered Ven and "several guards" - who were on duty when killed - with anything but loathing and mistrust.
"But we killed all those goblins!"
"I'm sure the gods will take that into account. Get a rope."
While it's not quite my cup of tea, evil pc's can probably make their way through the AP - with the DM doing some work on motivations, plot hooks, etc. But being both incompetent and evil is a ticket to failure.
You might think experienced players would know about non-lethal damage...
Hi all,
As an experiment, I'd love to know how you'd deal punishment to my PC's. They are about to complete the first book of RotR.
Here's what they've done:
- Wexla's brother was caught by Ven fooling around with Shayliss Vender. A fistfight ensued, and as the party was dragged down the street by the guards, they instigated a fight and Wexla ended up killing Ven Vender (by choking him to death). (Long story). The whole party was there.
- The party ran away and, as criminals on the run, cleared the caverns under the glassworks and discovered the threat to Sandpoint.
- The party was captured and imprisoned, then engineered an escape, killing several guards.
- The party hid out in the Sandpoint Hinterlands. A group of bounty hunters from Magnimar were hired to capture them. In a very close fight, the party managed to capture one of the bounty hunters while the others escaped.
- Over a period of days, the party slowly convinced the captured bounty hunter that they were trying to save Sandpoint. They let the bounty hunter go with a fresh horse and all his gear, and told him to return to tell the other bounty hunters that they needed help.
- The bounty hunter party was partially convinced.
- Goblins led another assault on Sandpoint. This time, half the town was razed and citizens started to grumble about the instability of the town. Unbeknownst to the players, the town guard was faced with the prospect of most of Sandpoint leaving the town, and it becoming a ghost town.
- Days later, three of the party members (including Wexla, Ven's murderer) returned to town. They were immediately taken in and faced a large council of important people in town, and any public who wanted to be there. The party members acknowledged they had done horrible things and should be punished for them. But they said that first they wanted to help save the town. The presentation was very convincing, and the town sent a cohort to help the party clear Thistletop. The party performed admirably, often risking...
I am also running Rise of the Runelords, and reading this made me cringe. It went from bad, to worse, to extremely worse, to slightly better, to bad again.
If you want to continue this campaign in Ernest, consider branding your PC's. To a similar affect such as Jean ValJean from the Les Miserables, or that one woman from the Scarlett Letter.
That way, most people they will encounter will be immidieatly off put by them, and the PC's to compensate will want to become better people, maybe in hopes of getting rid of the brand they have (on their hand, arm, face, etc)
The PC's should have some sort of need to want to protect sandpoint, and travel to and fro Magnimar as they please without being wanted criminals.
You should let your PC's know (in and out of game) that killing people, that arent bandits or brigands, or goblins, has serious consequence, much like killing someone in today's society.
They can be chaotic in alignment, and to an extension evil, but Chaotic Evil characters seldomly make a AP playable.
Over-serious and judgemental posts about our play style duly noted and thrown in the garbage. :)
I don't really care whether the activities of my group make you cringe or not. We play to have fun and be ridiculous. The Ven death scene was beer-through-the-nose hilarious just because it's so far from where we usually go in a game. RPGs are wonderful places to push limits and not take things too seriously.
I feel fortunate that no one in my group gets huffy because someone else should be using non-lethal damage in a certain situation (to use an example from above). We collectively have about 120 years of experience with non-lethal damage (having house-ruled it since 2nd Ed) so yes we are familiar with those options. :)
Thinking out loud, our fantasy RPGs always seem to involve some level of... " moral bankruptcy", shall we say... It works for me because I imagine these settings as dirty and largely lawless.
When our RPG group goes heroic full-on, we usually do it in a superhero campaign and camp it up big time.
That's all perfectly fine, but you neglected to mention any of this in your original post.
I did mention it in a subsequent post.
I think my original post was clear that I was looking for an assessment of Sandpoint / Varisian law, not an assessment of my players' actions. I did expect the less constructive posts to come rolling in, but I've been really happy with some of the great feedback and options that were posted here.
Apologies for losing my patience with lectures on how we should be playing our game. However, I disagree with your implication that I brought it on myself because of my players "horrific" actions.
If the dog is rabid, it has to be put down. "But it stopped the serial killer!" It's still rabid, there is no cure and it has to be put down.
I don't see how anyone in Sandpoint can view the pc's, who murdered Ven and "several guards" - who were on duty when killed - with anything but loathing and mistrust.
"But we killed all those goblins!"
"I'm sure the gods will take that into account. Get a rope."While it's not quite my cup of tea, evil pc's can probably make their way through the AP - with the DM doing some work on motivations, plot hooks, etc. But being both incompetent and evil is a ticket to failure.
You might think experienced players would know about non-lethal damage...
Neglecting the snarky bits:
As I stated in the OP, I'm not worried about sticking to the AP. Our group was clear that we were risking losing that option as soon as Ven started getting choked out on Main Street. :0
I've considered a hanging, but I think the PCs' actions and power level are beyond Sandpoint's ability to deal with at this point. The town is decimated from a second goblin attack (mentioned in my OP) and frighteningly short on guards. The town is in shock and survival mode so sending the party to Magnimar is one less thing to deal with.
It could be interesting to have them sentenced (in Magnimar) to a hanging, and to have the date of the hanging posted in Sandpoint. There are definitely a few people who would make the trip to see them die.
The party is extremely capable of escaping*, so if we do want to continue playing the characters, this option leaves plenty of opportunities for a getaway as well.
Thanks for the thoughts!
*(I don't think the party is high enough level for the city to take too many magical precautions yet, and they have a pretty rockin' Mesmerist in the group. If it goes that direction, they -will-be known as magic-users from then on though.
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That's all perfectly fine, but you neglected to mention any of this in your original post.I did mention it in a subsequent post.
I think my original post was clear that I was looking for an assessment of Sandpoint / Varisian law, not an assessment of my players' actions.
No it wasn't, not in the slightest.
Thread Title: Be the Judge and Jury of my PCs
As an experiment, I'd love to know how you'd deal punishment to my PC's
QUESTION: How would you punish these people?
I did expect the less constructive posts to come rolling in, but I've been really happy with some of the great feedback and options that were posted here.
Apologies for losing my patience with lectures on how we should be playing our game. However, I disagree with your implication that I brought it on myself because of my players "horrific" actions.
That is exactly what you did by withholding information from the OP.
Over-serious and judgemental posts about our play style duly noted and thrown in the garbage. :)
I don't really care whether the activities of my group make you cringe or not. We play to have fun and be ridiculous. The Ven death scene was beer-through-the-nose hilarious just because it's so far from where we usually go in a game. RPGs are wonderful places to push limits and not take things too seriously.
I feel fortunate that no one in my group gets huffy because someone else should be using non-lethal damage in a certain situation (to use an example from above). We collectively have about 120 years of experience with non-lethal damage (having house-ruled it since 2nd Ed) so yes we are familiar with those options. :)
By cringe, I don't mean it from a personal out of game point of view, by cringe I mean from a GM and story perspective. A GM should go with the flow, and if players want to exercise certain actions, so be it, however extreme rampages upset the module and thus it can be hard to continue it properly.
My suggestions weren't over-serious or judgmental, I was merely stating a fact that chaotic evil actions,(and to extend chaotic) has serious negative consequences in story lines.
The suggestion I gave you was reasonable. I didn't say "stop killing" or "use non lethal force"
If you just want Magnimar law,
"If either Ven or Shayliss is killed, the PC faces a murder charge, spends 1d3 days in jail, and is then sent to Magnimar for trial."
here is a nice post clearly explaining what I mean to say.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/2orjai/rise_of_the_runelor ds_spoilers_a_pc_wants_to/
But at the end of the day, its Your Module.
If the dog is rabid, it has to be put down. "But it stopped the serial killer!" It's still rabid, there is no cure and it has to be put down.
I don't see how anyone in Sandpoint can view the pc's, who murdered Ven and "several guards" - who were on duty when killed - with anything but loathing and mistrust.
"But we killed all those goblins!"
"I'm sure the gods will take that into account. Get a rope."While it's not quite my cup of tea, evil pc's can probably make their way through the AP - with the DM doing some work on motivations, plot hooks, etc. But being both incompetent and evil is a ticket to failure.
You might think experienced players would know about non-lethal damage...
Neglecting the snarky bits:
As I stated in the OP, I'm not worried about sticking to the AP. Our group was clear that we were risking losing that option as soon as Ven started getting choked out on Main Street. :0
I've considered a hanging, but I think the PCs' actions and power level are beyond Sandpoint's ability to deal with at this point. The town is decimated from a second goblin attack (mentioned in my OP) and frighteningly short on guards. The town is in shock and survival mode so sending the party to Magnimar is one less thing to deal with.
It could be interesting to have them sentenced (in Magnimar) to a hanging, and to have the date of the hanging posted in Sandpoint. There are definitely a few people who would make the trip to see them die.
The party is extremely capable of escaping*, so if we do want to continue playing the characters, this option leaves plenty of opportunities for a getaway as well.
Thanks for the thoughts!
*(I don't think the party is high enough level for the city to take too many magical precautions yet, and they have a pretty rockin' Mesmerist in the group. If it goes that direction, they -will-be known as magic-users from then on though.
Magnimar: City Of Monuments states that death sentences are for one crime only: treason. Murderers usually get punished by putting them in jail for the rest of their lives. That said, some jails in Magnimar are campaigns/AP in their own right, basically elaborated multi-level dungeons with powerful end-bosses
Thanks for the additional feedback, everyone!
An update - Wexla (the worst transgressor) died in the final encounter of Thistletop, and the party had to run without recovering the body.
The others surrendered to the authorities, and are now bound and locked in a caged cart on the way to Magnimar. Orik and Lyrie are in the cage with them.
The only PC not in the cage is Wexla's new PC, who is a half-brother to one of the PC's. Not sure if he's going to rescue them or not.
Two of the party are Fetchlings, and I've revealed that some of the group carting them back to Magnimar are a kind of undercover contingent of the law - a paladin- and inquisitor- based "planar protector" group who initially detected the Fetchlings' entry into this plane from the feared Plane of Shadows. (This was the tradeoff for the two PCs being Fetchlings - a complication and plane-spanning storyline that I will tie into the end of the campaign.)
Since the party has already escaped Sandpoint so many times, the caravan is aware that it may happen again. The planar-protector Inquisitor who is travelling with them has told Orik, Lyrie and the non-Fetchling PC's that they will be pardoned in Magnimar and the Fetchlings will be taken away for other crimes (which don't actually exist). But if there is an escape, or even an attempt at escape, the Inquisitor said that everyone will be punished equally.
Thanks again for the help, everyone! I'll let you know how it goes in Magnimar.
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I'm really interested to hear how your campaign has progressed since. Personally I definitely prefer sticking to a main story most of the way, but I think what your group is doing sounds like a lot of fun. Kind of admire the ability to improvise outside of the AP when it results in writing an entirely new story for both yourself and the players. Sounds exciting!
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While I think assigning the PCs to duty in the Black Arrows is appropriate, I can't see people believing that they care enough about either Turtleback Ferry or Sandpoint to actually properly defend them. Punishment that allows the PCs to continue the game should basically place the PCs into permanent slave status. In addition, I think part of any punishment should include paying for a raise dead spell on Ven Vinder at a minimum, and possibly the other guards that were killed. Permament service, bound by magic, to the defense of Sandpoint though is realistically the only way to avoid execution.
While I think assigning the PCs to duty in the Black Arrows is appropriate, I can't see people believing that they care enough about either Turtleback Ferry or Sandpoint to actually properly defend them.
Good points, but those events are not the next ones in the timeline of the campaign. A lot can happen between now and then.
Punishment that allows the PCs to continue the game should basically place the PCs into permanent slave status. In addition, I think part of any punishment should include paying for a raise dead spell on Ven Vinder at a minimum, and possibly the other guards that were killed. Permament service, bound by magic, to the defense of Sandpoint though is realistically the only way to avoid execution.
Alarm bells go off when I hear the word "realistic" in an RPG context, or "the only way" in any context. :)
I've found a way for the campaign to continue that fits the logic of the world I am building with my PCs. We're all happy about it. I'll post an update in a moment.
I'm really interested to hear how your campaign has progressed since. Personally I definitely prefer sticking to a main story most of the way, but I think what your group is doing sounds like a lot of fun. Kind of admire the ability to improvise outside of the AP when it results in writing an entirely new story for both yourself and the players. Sounds exciting!
Thanks! Yeah, I can't deal with sticking too closely to things. It limits my players, too, because they find themselves restricting their PC actions because of their meta-knowledge of what the AP may or may not allow. We never stick to one direction for too long!
Having said that, this campaign is still working out pretty well.
Bottom line: Only one of the original characters is still alive, and he wasn't accused of killing anyone. (This campaign is super strange in that players are also playing fast and loose with PCs, mostly because PF is new to us and they're pretty excited about all the character possibilities. Some of the original PCs were kinda bummer character builds. :) They seem to be settling into well-loved characters now though).
Anyways, after clearing Thistletop, the PCs arrived in Sandpoint and gave all the treasure they recovered to the town. (I may have mentioned that Sandpoint was attacked a second time by goblins already, and it was a major battle that burned 1/3 of the town. So that trauma was much worse than the PCs' original actions). The PC's willingly surrendered themselves to the town for judgement, and they were carted off to Magnimar for trial.
Two of the PCs were jailed in Magnimar for trial, but a certain person (A.) in the RotR campaign wanted to see the remaining original character ("Vex") alive. (That person would be obvious to GMs - don't want to give Spoilers.) So A. convinced I. to free the two PCs, because he had other purposes for him. Voila, everyone is free. But suddenly, right around the time the prisoners were freed, someone who looks exactly like Vex started killing people in Sandpoint. (This is close to the way RotR is supposed to work.) A. wants to prolong Vex's alienation and suffering, and is doing everything he can to have Vex terrorized, then drawn into his own lair for a little ritual torture and death.
So there is still bad blood in Sandpoint (and it's getting worse), so the PC party is more like Batman right now - they are doing a lot of good, but many people still vilify them and they have to remain hidden from the public. They have a camp outside of town and sneak supplies through Sandpoint allies.
Good fun.
I realize that Sandpoint needs to get on their side later in the campaign, but there may be ways around that. The Unwelcome Hero schtick might still work there - or eventually they are just doing so much good that the PC haterz eventually are vastly outnumbered by the PC fanbois. Depends what they can do about A, and if they can show what they've done to the public somehow.