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I was reading up on Illusions and came across [u]this[/u] line:
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
Does that mean that ANY check can be used to disbelieve an illusion, after a Will save fails?
For example: A Sorcerer is fleeing down a long corridor from an enemy Fighter and Rogue. He rounds the corner, casts "Silent Image" to create the image of a large, locked door to bar their path. He even casts "Ghost Sound" to emulate the sound of a door slamming, the rattling of keys, and turning of the lock.
The Fighter and Rogue catch up, round the corner, slam into the door. Interaction means they each get a Will save, which they both fail.
Let's say the DC of the Door illusion is 21; perhaps the DM makes it slightly higher for clever use of "Ghost Sound" to make the "Silent Image" more convincing; who knows?
The Fighter backs up and tries to knock down the door by Charging into it with his shoulder. His Strength check results in a 16, which is less than 21, so his shoulder slams into the door without budging it.
The Rogue then tries to pick the lock on the door illusion. He rolls a Disable Device Skill check with a result of 25, which beats the door's DC 21, and the door vanishes in front of them, and they proceed on their chase.
So, would the Strength and Disable Device checks be used in this manner to dissipate the "Silent Image?"
Totally lost,
:Byronus
The Fighter and Rogue catch up, round the corner, slam into the door. Interaction means they each get a Will save, which they both fail.
They can't "slam into the door", as the door isn't there. They wold pass right through.
The Fighter backs up and tries to knock down the door by Charging into it with his shoulder. His Strength check results in a 16, which is less than 21, so his shoulder slams into the door without budging it.
Again, nothing to hit. The fighter would simply pass right through.
The fighter running through the door he was trying to knock down counts as an interaction, so he gets a Will save to disbelieve. Even if failed, he is still through the illusion as there was actually nothing there to stop him.
Same with the rogue - attempting to pick the lock is interacting with the illusion, and he gets a will save to disbelieve.
The Disable Device check would automatically fail because there isn't a device to disable. I would likely give another will save every round the Fighter and Rogue approach the "door" like it's a door until they manage to figure it out.
The Fighter and Rogue catch up, round the corner, slam into the door. Interaction means they each get a Will save, which they both fail.They can't "slam into the door", as the door isn't there. They would pass right through.
Gotcha. Hence the line: "Figments cannot make something seem to be something else." The hallway is just empty space, so they would simply pass through the door because empty space is what's actually there.
The Fighter backs up and tries to knock down the door by Charging into it with his shoulder. His Strength check results in a 16, which is less than 21, so his shoulder slams into the door without budging it.The fighter running through the door he was trying to knock down counts as an interaction, so he gets a Will save to disbelieve. Even if failed, he is still through the illusion as there was actually nothing there to stop him.
Same with the rogue - attempting to pick the lock is interacting with the illusion, and he gets a will save to disbelieve.
In the case of the Fighter, I can see how the Illusion would be spoiled, as he's physically throwing himself at the door. But, would the Illusion persist after he flew through it, or would it vanish?
If the Rogue were by himself and trying to pick the lock, and he kept failing his Will save, would he just be thinking his Disable Device check failed until he tried something else?
It just seems strange to me that the player is forced to use his check against a DC that doesn't exist, just to have the DM prompt him/her to make a Will save. Or does the DM make the Will save in secret?
Thanks,
:Byronus
In the case of the Fighter, I can see how the Illusion would be spoiled, as he's physically throwing himself at the door. But, would the Illusion persist after he flew through it, or would it vanish?
If the Rogue were by himself and trying to pick the lock, and he kept failing his Will save, would he just be thinking his Disable Device check failed until he tried something else?
The rogue would know something is wrong the instant he tried to pick the lock. His lockpicks don't touch anything, there is no resistance. No sound of his picks against metal. Once the rogue notices that, the illusion may just disappear.
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
Passing through an illusion would be pretty good proof it isn't real.
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Jeraa has you covered in how illusions work. Her posts are pretty solid.
As far as rolling in secret, that's up to you. I once made a lich dance on a piece of furniture while taunting the party with "Hah, you cannot touch me adventurers, for the floor is lava!" And indeed, the floor appeared to be lava.
However the trick was very devious. There was a low DC major image spell of a lava floor, around DC 15. But underneath that was a higher DC 22, separate major image spell of a normal floor. And underneath that was the real thing...a lava floor.
I asked for will save modifiers, rolled them all in secret, and watched the chaos ensue within the party.
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Passing through an illusion would be pretty good proof it isn't real.
Not necessarily. It could simply be a magic door which lets a limited # of people through under specific circumstances. (specific race/alignment etc)
Frankly - it's hard to totally prove that something is an illusion due to how much magical oddness there is in the Pathfinder world.
Interaction and proof will always be terms left up to interpretation and GM discretion. Expect massive table variation. Some interpretations make illusions useless, others make them all-powerful. A healthy balance should be maintained.
Personally, if I walked right through a wall, I would immediately believe it was an illusion unless I had some serious evidence telling me something else.
Here is a 5 part blog by one of the guys who designed the system in the first place, Skip Williams.
Link
Granted it is over at WOTC, but it certainly gives some insight into what was meant when it was originally written.
Bottom Line, "interaction" should usually involve some sort of action, usually at least a move.
Thanks Jeraa, and everyone who chimed in.
:Byronus
Illusions Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Here are the links to the entire series MC mentioned. I highly recommend them, they are excellent resources for understand how to run illusions.
Note that the spells/schools are all the same from the 3.5 versions. No changes in how they work as far as I'm aware, so the blogs are still quite relevant to pathfinder.
Passing through an illusion would be pretty good proof it isn't real.
Not necessarily. It could simply be a magic door which lets a limited # of people through under specific circumstances. (specific race/alignment etc)
Frankly - it's hard to totally prove that something is an illusion due to how much magical oddness there is in the Pathfinder world.
Keep in mind that such effects are likely to be rare, and many/most characters wouldn't even be aware they existed. Proof needs to be tempered by the world context, but also character knowledge.
The Disable Device check would automatically fail because there isn't a device to disable. I would likely give another will save every round the Fighter and Rogue approach the "door" like it's a door until they manage to figure it out.
For the record, I misread the original post and thought the door was glamered over a wall or was otherwise impassable. >.>
Old school, i.e. 1st and 2nd ed. AD&D had a thing where illusions forced those who failed their rolls to disbelieve to pretend that the illusion was real. An illusion of a fire would cause actual damage due to your body reacting as if the fire was there. A door that the fighter tried to slam would cause him to stop short at the door and think he hit it.
This is not the case in 3.x and later.