Ok so, for my campaign I'm building a class to replace the Anti-Paladin. I'm going back to the origins of the Anti-Paladin literally the exact and total opposite of the Paladin.
So if the Paladin is a strong fighter, the Anti-Pal is a poor fighter.
If the Paladin has good HP the Anti-Pal has poor HP.
The Pal uses Divine Spellcasting the Anti-Pal uses Arcane.
The Pal worships a God the Anti worships himself.
The Pal is a poor Spellcaster, the Anti-Pal is a strong spellcaster.
The Pal is brave. The Anti-Pal is a coward.
So. Suggestions?
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Sounds like a wizard archetype?
Alternatively, have the anti paladin not be a spell caster at all and therefore be more like a rogue.
Despite the name, an anti-paladin still needs a thematic connection to a paladin.
This is the level where you get into bizarro logic- "I don't like superman" is directly opposite "I like superman", but if you want to go all-out and reverse every part, you end up with (not) I (not) do (not) n't (not) like (not) super (not) man, which ends up somewhere in the ballpark of "You don't not like weak alien", which is a 90 degree turn and two plane shifts away from the original idea; hardly similar at all.
That said...
If you want an idea of how this might look, search up "all-star superman #4" and "black kryptonite".
Making an anti-paladin a poor fighter is not hard. Similar, connected deal with the HP.
Divine vs. Arcane isn't a hard swap. All you need to do is either make it spontaneous casting, or add a spellbook. Infernal or demonic spirit pacts would be nice, but that's just flavor. Worshipping self is basically what regular arcane casters do anyways.
Being a strong caster requires 2/3 or more likely fullcasting. Are you sure you're not looking for a wizard?
Anti-paladin being a coward is something the player roleplays. Well, unless you give them a mechanical incentive to flee or hide behind walls of minions.
Personally, I'd say that antipaladins could function somewhat like regular paladins, except lawful evil.
My Self wrote: This is the level where you get into bizarro logic- "I don't like superman" is directly opposite "I like superman", but if you want to go all-out and reverse every part, you end up with (not) I (not) do (not) n't (not) like (not) super (not) man, which ends up somewhere in the ballpark of "You don't not like weak alien", which is a 90 degree turn and two plane shifts away from the original idea; hardly similar at all.
That said...
If you want an idea of how this might look, search up "all-star superman #4" and "black kryptonite".
This is funny because my kids are watching one of the Superman films right now. The one with Kevin Spacey I guess.
Anyhow, I don't see how the OP could possibly be serious. I am curious though if the OP is actually familiar with the actual original anti-paladin. Which, if memory serves correctly appeared in either Dungeon or Dragon magazine.
Sounds like a Wizard to me. Good Warrior vs. Evil Wizard is one of the oldest stories out there.
Ciaran Barnes wrote: My Self wrote: This is the level where you get into bizarro logic- "I don't like superman" is directly opposite "I like superman", but if you want to go all-out and reverse every part, you end up with (not) I (not) do (not) n't (not) like (not) super (not) man, which ends up somewhere in the ballpark of "You don't not like weak alien", which is a 90 degree turn and two plane shifts away from the original idea; hardly similar at all.
That said...
If you want an idea of how this might look, search up "all-star superman #4" and "black kryptonite".
This is funny because my kids are watching one of the Superman films right now. The one with Kevin Spacey I guess.
Anyhow, I don't see how the OP could possibly be serious. I am curious though if the OP is actually familiar with the actual original anti-paladin. Which, if memory serves correctly appeared in either Dungeon or Dragon magazine. Quite familiar actually.
The original Anti-Pal was a very dispicable pseudo-Warrior who spread corruption wherever it went, was more rogue than Fighter, and was... A coward.
Literally, the Anti-Paladin originally had a thing where if it didn't outnumber the heroes 2:1 or if a Paladin was present was forced to flee with maximum possible haste.
Made for a supremely annoying enemy as he'd do all this evil and the second PCs showed up would instantly run away.
Curious to know who this original antipaladin is, actually.
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Arachnofiend wrote: Curious to know who this original antipaladin is, actually. The Antipaladin originated in Dragon Magazine issue 39
Here is an excerpt:
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The one really fatal flaw in the Anti-Paladin is his lack of courage.
Despite his fearsome strength and formidable appearance, he is in
reality a sniveling coward at heart!
So long as he is surrounded by his retainers while ambushing an
inferior and outnumbered opponent, the Anti-Paladin’s morale cannot
be seriously questioned. However, when faced by his nemesis,
the Paladin; or a Lawful Good Cleric; or any character of Good
alignment, there is an excellent chance that the Anti-Paladin’s true
nature will reveal itself.
Provided that these opponents equal or surpass him in experience,
the Anti-Paladin must check his morale immediately upon
facing any one of these types in single combat. He never need check
initial morale against an inferior opponent or a foe not included in
one of the categories mentioned above.
If the Anti-Paladin saves, he need not check morale again until
he loses half his total hit points—or more—in the course of that
particular melee (there are exceptions, see below). Note that this
“Morale Check due to Damage” is required, whether the Anti-Paladin
is battling a single Lawful Good Cleric or a party of Neutral
fighters.
Should the Anti-Paladin fail his morale check, however, he will
immediately utter his famous battlecry: “Curses, foiled again!” and
flee the field (if flight is possible) or surrender, if it is not.
In any case, he will abandon both his human and his inhuman servitors to their richly deserved fate!
The base chance that the Anti-Paladin will act in such a cowardly
fashion is 50% when facing a Paladin, 25% against all others. This
“Rout Factor” decreases by 5% for each retainer within 60 feet (2”
outdoors, 6” dungeon) of the Anti-Paladin.
The Anti-Paladin will react differently to each one of his three
major types of opponent, as follows:
(1) Against characters of Good alignment, the Anti-Paladin must
check morale twice as noted above (i.e. upon joining combat with
such a character for the first time and/or upon losing half or more of
his total hit points in melee).
(2) When engaging a Lawful Good Cleric, the Anti-Paladin must
check morale as per (1) above. In addition, he must make a separate
morale check after any round in which he takes damage from the
Cleric, either through the Cleric’s weapons or spells.
(3) When facing a Paladin, the Anti-Paladin must check morale
as if he were engaging a Cleric; see (2) above. In addition, the
Anti-Paladin’s “Rout Factor” increases +5% for each hit point of
damage scored by teh Paladin’s blows.
It should be obvious from the above that all Anti-Paladins will
react in certain, predetermined ways under combat conditions.
First, they will avoid personal combat—especially against those
characters which are their extreme antithesis—unless or until it
becomes absolutely necessary (Leading from the rear has always
been one of the Anti-Paladins’ strongest points!).
Second, they will always use their retainers to bear the brunt of
any fighting and shield the Anti-Paladin from direct attack. Even
above mundane profit, each Anti-Paladin’s primary concern is his
own precious skin.
Finally, if the Anti-Paladin is personally forced into action, he will go into battle flanked by as many of his retainers as possible. Not only does this bolster his own morale while distracting his opponent(s)
-----
And that, my friends, is the original Anti-Paladin. If a Paladin deals 10 pts of damage to it, it has a 100% chance to flee.
Reading this had given me brain herpes.
So, not all your lines in the OP were correct then ;-)
I do not see a poor fighter with "fearsome strength and formidable appearance".
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The Raven Black wrote: So, not all your lines in the OP were correct then ;-)
I do not see a poor fighter with "fearsome strength and formidable appearance".
That was the deal though...
He had "fearsome strength" and a "formidable appearance" but if he took 10 pts of damage he either ran or surrendered and he couldn't attack anyone unless he stabbed them in the back. Also, back then we didn't have BAB, we had THAC0 and they used the Rogue THAC0 chart (and had rogue backstab) meaning that they were the second-to-poorest combatant class.
But they LOOKED scary.
That was kind of the original rub. They were big, nasty looking, had really awesome powers, they wore black... Black everything. Black armor, black cape, used a black sword, etc...
Until you smacked them...
Then they screamed for mommy.
They were a poser. Literally, that was kind of the gag with the original Anti-Paladin. Where the Paladin was a truly powerful warrior with unmatched bravery, the Anti-Paladin was a truly weak warrior with a yellow streak a mile long.
They were literally everything the Paladin wasn't.
That is what Anti-Paladin means.
So, for my home brew I am bringing that back but taking it to the next logical conclusion, I am making something that is the complete opposite of the Paladin.
Then yes, wizard it is.
Maybe a wizard that is proficient in martial weapons and can cast in heavy armor.
The Raven Black wrote: Then yes, wizard it is.
Maybe a wizard that is proficient in martial weapons and can cast in heavy armor.
I was thinking more akin to Summoner. The one who kind of wears their Eidolan?
Why?
Well, if we go for exact opposite:
The Paladin has full BAB so the furthest from that is like 1/3 BAB (or Wizard BAB)
The Paladin is a 4th level Caster, a full caster would be the opposite of a non-Caster. So 6th level caster is the opposing. (The Pal's the 2bd Worst, the Anti's the 2nd best.)
The Pal is a prepared Spellcaster, thus the Anti-Pal should be spontaneous.
The Pal gets Good Fort and Will but bad Reflex. The Anti should have poor Fort and Will but good Reflex.
The reason I'm thinking the Summoner's synthesis is this...
The Anti-Paladin is a coward who is afraid of getting hurt. The Eidolan eats all of the damage. Add in a bit of flavor that the Eidolan of the AntiPaladin isn't translucent and looks like a Bad Mamma Jamma when deep down, under it all, is a sniveling coward who is revealed when you pop the armor.
Synthesist Summoner is already a 3/4 bab with 6th level casting and his meat shield body armor (and a horde of disposable minions).
You probably want to just use that mechanically, then. The only requirement it's not filling of yours is half bab, but really I don't think there's any half bab non-full casters around. Maybe a prestige class with 1/2 bab to lower the bab that maintains casting progression? But usually that would mess up the eidolon, ultimately sacrificing a lot.
Really giving up being half bab fixes all of it to just use the existing class. Fluff is a powerful tool, and any player can choose to always flee from a fight they show any chance of loosing. It doesn't have to be a mechanical disadvantage (though if you took Cowardly as a homebrew flaw for an extra evolution feat this might work well for you).
Shiroi wrote: Synthesist Summoner is already a 3/4 bab with 6th level casting and his meat shield body armor (and a horde of disposable minions).
You probably want to just use that mechanically, then. The only requirement it's not filling of yours is half bab, but really I don't think there's any half bab non-full casters around. Maybe a prestige class with 1/2 bab to lower the bab that maintains casting progression? But usually that would mess up the eidolon, ultimately sacrificing a lot.
Really giving up being half bab fixes all of it to just use the existing class. Fluff is a powerful tool, and any player can choose to always flee from a fight they show any chance of loosing. It doesn't have to be a mechanical disadvantage (though if you took Cowardly as a homebrew flaw for an extra evolution feat this might work well for you).
Cowardice needs to be in there, its basically the "Cannot perform an evil action" for the Paladin.
I still need to give them more abilities though, to make up for that. Still working it out.
Then make it a code of conduct. Granted everyone *hates* the paladin code and how forced it is, but it's your call. If I had to trade mechanical effects on that I'd say that since paladin gets smite evil (rare uses of really strong power) then you get passive buffs instead. Go with something like +2 to hit and damage, double vs creatures lower than your level or outnumbered 2-1 or better. But you take a -x to fear saves, and must make a save based on your hp vs a fear effect whenever you fight a higher cr opponent, any opponent with (x levels in y classes) counts as cr+x for this purpose. Failure means you become shaken/frightened/panicked and must run away.
This is just random off my head to see if anything helps you.
Antipaladin sounds like a pretty good team player, until he chickens out. Perhaps a pseudo-bardic performance that only buffs allies? Also, the Vile Leadership feat or a class-leveled companion is practically a must-have. The sort of villain you're talking about is almost certain to have a more powerful, braver lackey who does all the dirty work. Maybe even teamwork feats that you grant your minions?
Perhaps a scaling bonus to saves/attacks/DCs/whatnot based on how many minions you have?
Also, a good array of escape spells that work while under pressure would be nice.
Shiroi wrote: Then make it a code of conduct. Granted everyone *hates* the paladin code and how forced it is, but it's your call. If I had to trade mechanical effects on that I'd say that since paladin gets smite evil (rare uses of really strong power) then you get passive buffs instead. Go with something like +2 to hit and damage, double vs creatures lower than your level or outnumbered 2-1 or better. But you take a -x to fear saves, and must make a save based on your hp vs a fear effect whenever you fight a higher cr opponent, any opponent with (x levels in y classes) counts as cr+x for this purpose. Failure means you become shaken/frightened/panicked and must run away.
This is just random off my head to see if anything helps you.
My idea was, any time the Eidolan isn't summoned in combat then the Anti-Paladin is considered Shaken as part of the code and the main one being that the Anti-Paladin may never attack an enemy that outnumbers him (and his allies) that he is not significantly stronger than, directly.
So, if there are say, 5 enemies, and the Anti-Paladin only has 3 Allies, if the PCs are within 2 HD of him then the Anti-Paladin couldn't initiate an attack unless he attacked from stealth or with an ambush or something.
Passive buffs are a great idea as opposed to Smite Evil. Always on, as opposed to activated.
Probably:
+1 to All Saves, Attack Rolls, Damage Rolls, and Natural AC (these apply to the Eidolan) starting at level 5 and gaining an additional +1 at levels 10, 15, and 20.
The Class Capstone would probably be being free from their code as, finally, they have become a true villain.
Maybe instead of an Eidolan it could be something else but that is the basic gist.
My Self wrote: Antipaladin sounds like a pretty good team player, until he chickens out. Perhaps a pseudo-bardic performance that only buffs allies? Also, the Vile Leadership feat or a class-leveled companion is practically a must-have. The sort of villain you're talking about is almost certain to have a more powerful, braver lackey who does all the dirty work. Maybe even teamwork feats that you grant your minions?
Perhaps a scaling bonus to saves/attacks/DCs/whatnot based on how many minions you have?
Also, a good array of escape spells that work while under pressure would be nice.
I like it, not a bad idea.
Interestingly enough this is starting to become not half-a-bad class to be honest.
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Shiroi wrote: Granted everyone *hates* the paladin code Not everyone ;)
Counting enemy HD is awfully fiddly. You never know what enemies you're going to get.
Idea: Perhaps you get a scaling penalty to hit/damage every few levels? So at level 1, you have a -1 to hit/damage which increases by 1 at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th? This penalty to hit/damage is a bonus to hit/damage for your allies.
A sort of ally-based Smite Good would be interesting- being able to lock down one enemy via allies. Somewhat like a regular Paladin's Aura of Justice, except that lower HD minions get a bigger boost to hit. Maybe they get a bonus to hit equal to the difference between your level and their BAB? Also some temporary HP, so they can survive a hit. This would make low accuracy minions somewhat useful even at higher levels.
How about Dimension Door or Teleport as a supernatural ability?
My Self wrote: This is the level where you get into bizarro logic- "I don't like superman" is directly opposite "I like superman", but if you want to go all-out and reverse every part, you end up with (not) I (not) do (not) n't (not) like (not) super (not) man, which ends up somewhere in the ballpark of "You don't not like weak alien", which is a 90 degree turn and two plane shifts away from the original idea; hardly similar at all. I was just reminded of this thread by yesterday's Dinosaur Comics.
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