Which monsters use elite array and which ones standard array for abilities?


Rules Questions


When reading how to interpret the monsters descriptions the text says.

"Creatures with NPC class levels have stats in the standard array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), while creatures with character class levels have the elite array (15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 8); in both cases, the creature's ability score modifiers are listed at the end of its description."

That "the creature's ability score modifiers are listed at the end of its description" is.. where? No monster i've seen in the Reference Document have those modifiers.

Also it seems that is not really true. The doppelganger stats are too high to being based on the standard array, but the doppelganger is not provided with PC or NPC class levels...

Anyway. Can i just assume that any humanoid creature (including monstrous humanoid and alike) uses the elite array and the other creatures don't? Or maybe it does mean that any creature able to acquire PC class levels is created using the elite array?


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

The text you quoted applies only to creatures that lack racial hit dice and also does not include racial modifiers. Only a monster that has an "XXs as characters" section in its entry can be meaningfully reverse engineered to one of those arrays.

Liberty's Edge

Look at the Vampire. It has character class (Sorcerer) levels. So it uses the elite array. Those values are then modified by the 'Ability Scores' modifiers listed in the Vampire template.

Creatures like the Doppleganger, without any class levels at all, have racial modifiers equal to the listed values minus 10 (if the value is even) or 11 (if the listed value is odd).


CBDunkerson wrote:
Look at the Vampire. It has character class (Sorcerer) levels. So it uses the elite array. Those values are then modified by the 'Ability Scores' modifiers listed in the Vampire template.

Ah! Then, for example if the creature is an aristocrat vampire, it uses the standard array, but in the case of the sorcerer vampire, it uses the elite array.

CBDunkerson wrote:
Creatures like the Doppleganger, without any class levels at all, have racial modifiers equal to the listed values minus 10 (if the value is even) or 11 (if the listed value is odd).

Hmmm... So, as DM, to create a custom doppelganger or fey, that is going to be the nemesis of the party, the main villain of that campaign, a foe above average of her kind, i can get the racial modifiers by removing 10 to even and 11 to odds, then rolling dice or take the elite array, assign stats, apply those modifiers, add class levels and she's ready to wipe the floor wi*cough, cough* to be an interesting and challenging foe to my players, right?


Look at this (the section on adding class levels, at the end):
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/monsterAdvancement.html

You will see that when a monster that normally only has racial hit dice gains class levels, it gains bonuses to its ability scores (see "step 2"):

PRD wrote:
The first step of this process is to modify the creature's ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities. Creatures with NPC class levels do not receive adjustments to their ability scores.

You don't need to "reverse engineer" the doppleganger. Just give it these bonuses according to what class it is getting.

BTW, I find it useful to take an editable character sheet pdf like this one http://www.commonroomgames.com/PF_char_sheet-fillable_6_pgs.pdf and plug in the monster's stuff, then add the class levels, and let the sheet do the calculations for me.


Peet wrote:

You will see that when a monster that normally only has racial hit dice gains class levels, it gains bonuses to its ability scores (see "step 2"):

PRD wrote:
The first step of this process is to modify the creature's ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities.
You don't need to "reverse engineer" the doppelganger. Just give it these bonuses according to what class it is getting.

That makes the process much simpler.

In fact, those adjustments are the elite array adjustments (15(11+4), 14(10+4), 13(11+2), 12(10+2), 10(10+0), 8(10-2)). Or if i want to go extreme i can roll the dice, get the adjustments and just add on top of the monster. Thanks for the tip, this makes the process much easier.

Peet wrote:
BTW, I find it useful to take an editable character sheet pdf like this one http://www.commonroomgames.com/PF_char_sheet-fillable_6_pgs.pdf and plug in the monster's stuff, then add the class levels, and let the sheet do the calculations for me.

I like that sheet, i don't understand all of it, like the spell points part, but it's ready for multiclass characters and it's flexible enough to put a monster, custom class and a few house rules in it. Thanks.

I'll compare it with the google spreadsheet suggested in d20pfsrd.


Well, looking at the stats a flind character gets, i think now the doppelganger is a weak race...

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