Unarmed Strike, Two-handed weapons and TWF


Rules Questions


There was an FAQ ruling about TWF and Two-handed weapons that I still had
a question about because of its wording. Here is the ruling with the part I'm curious about bolded

FAQ Ruling:

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Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?

No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks
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So as it says the reason you can't use an armored gauntlet or armor spikes is because your hand is occupied wielding the two handed weapon.

However with the Monk or Brawler's unarmed strike, they are able to make the attacks with other limbs.

Monk's Unarmed Strike:
A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed.

Does this mean a monk or brawler could use TWF with a two-handed weapon and still make the other attacks as part of TWF

Also just as a precaution, I AM NOT asking about using weapons with brawler's flurry OR flurry of blows

It has also already been ruled that multiple unarmed strikes are possible as part of TWF

TWF/Unarmed FAQ:
Unarmed Strike: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make two unarmed strikes in one round?
Yes.


Ignoring flurries (where you can use whatever combo of attacks you darn well want as long as they are flurriable weapons)- no.

This is the case of 'metaphorical hands'.

You are allowed two 'hands' worth of effort during your full attack. These are 'metaphorical' hands because they don't actually have to be your hands- they can be your feet, head, etc. They are referred to as hands because...well...most people use their hands to grab a weapon to attack.

In practice, a 'hand' is basically a measure of mental and physical effort you can exert in a round. Player characters typically have 2 'hands' (some creatures have more hands- usually ones that qualify for multiweapon fighting and such; those creatures are usually not playable, and there are few abilities that make you into such a creature)

So you have two 'hands' worth of effort you can use. A 2 handed weapon, as the name implies, requires both 'hands' of effort to work. Ergo, you do not have any free 'metaphorical hands' left to do unarmed strikes.

Another way to look at it is to look at the difference between natural attacks and manufactured weapons (which includes unarmed strikes in practice, since they get iteratives). The thing you have proposed would basically give anyone with unarmed strikes free bonus attacks just because their limbs are unoccupied. But that is the role of natural attacks- nautral attacks are the ones that can be extra attacks on unoccupied limbs. And look at how they work- only one attack per limb for the entire round- no iteratives. Also, they face rather harsh penalties for mixing them with manufactured weapons.

If the designers wanted unarmed strikes to work with 2 handed attacks, they would end up looking like a bite attack- with a complete lack of possible iterative attacks from TWF feats.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Given a character with a boulder helmet, a boot-blade, a shield and a sword with BAB < +6.

Without two-weapon fighting, you can attack with any single one (because you only get one attack). If you use the boulder helmet or the boot-blade, you didn't use an actual hand, but did use a metaphorical hand.

With two-weapon fighting, you can attack with any two, provided you pay the appropriate penalties to them all.

Now, change the sword and shield to a two-handed weapon, and the boot-blade to armor spikes. Without two-weapon fighting, you can attack with any single one (because you only get one attack). If you used the two-handed weapon, it was one attack, but two metaphorical hands.

With two-weapon fighting, you could attack with the armor spikes and the boulder helmet OR the two-handed weapon. If you used the two-handed weapon, it was one attack but two metaphorical hands, leaving no metaphorical hands free to make the TWF attack with the armor spikes (and by analogy with any other weapon).

Scarab Sages

However, If you were using a Barbazu beard or a Sea Knife, you could use two-weapon fighting with a two-handed weapon and that weapon to gain an extra attack via two-weapon fighting, because they both specifically allow you to do so.

Also, this only applied to situations where you gain an extra attack via the two weapon fighting feat.

If you have a longspear and armor spikes or improved unarmed strikes, you can take iterative attacks with either weapon, and threaten and can take AoOs normally at both reach and adjacent.

If you have whirlwind attack, you can also make attack rolls against reach and adjacent with those weapons.

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