This delves into the mosh-pit that is stealth so if you abandon ship now, I can't hold a grudge.
Here's the setup. A character with Hide in Plain Sight(Ex.) while being chased, stops moving and rolls a stealth check (while being directly observed). Instead of relocating, he decides to simply remain stationary. Even though they fail their spot checks, one of the pursuers happens to have scent and locates the square the person is in or one just decides to be suspicious and attack the spot the character was in.
How is that attack resolved? I can find nothing about attacking something you can't see without having the prerequisite of being blinded or the target having invisibility. After all, being hidden by stealth does not say that it grants you any miss chance, concealment, invisibility or treat your unseeing plebians as blind.
Hide in Plain Sight(Ex) allows a character to make a stealth check "While being observed."
These are all the almost relevant sections I could find on attacking unseen foes in one way or another.
Stealth(Skill):
(Dex; Armor Check Penalty)
You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to slip past foes or strike from an unseen position. This skill covers hiding and moving silently.
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
Creatures gain a bonus or penalty on Stealth checks based on their size: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Medium +0, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving.
If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a bonus on Stealth checks (see Feats).
Darkness(Environment):
Darkness
Darkvision allows many characters and monsters to see perfectly well without any light at all, but characters with normal or low-light vision can be rendered completely blind by putting out the lights. Torches or lanterns can be blown out by sudden gusts of subterranean wind, magical light sources can be dispelled or countered, or magical traps might create fields of impenetrable darkness.
In many cases, some characters or monsters might be able to see while others are blinded. For purposes of the following points, a blinded creature is one who simply can't see through the surrounding darkness.
Creatures blinded by darkness lose the ability to deal extra damage due to precision (for example, via sneak attack or a duelist's precise strike ability).
Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Blinded creatures can't run or charge.
All opponents have total concealment from a blinded creature, so the blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat. A blinded creature must first pinpoint the location of an opponent in order to attack the right square; if the blinded creature launches an attack without pinpointing its foe, it attacks a random square within its reach. For ranged attacks or spells against a foe whose location is not pinpointed, roll to determine which adjacent square the blinded creature is facing; its attack is directed at the closest target that lies in that direction.
A blinded creature loses its Dexterity modifier to AC (if positive) and takes a –2 penalty to AC.
A blinded creature takes a –4 penalty on Perception checks and most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks, including any with an armor check penalty. A creature blinded by darkness automatically fails any skill check relying on vision.
Creatures blinded by darkness cannot use gaze attacks and are immune to gaze attacks.
A creature blinded by darkness can make a Perception check as a free action each round in order to locate foes (DC equal to opponents' Stealth checks). A successful check lets a blinded character hear an unseen creature “over there somewhere.” It's almost impossible to pinpoint the location of an unseen creature. A Perception check that beats the DC by 20 reveals the unseen creature's square (but the unseen creature still has total concealment from the blinded creature).
A blinded creature can grope about to find unseen creatures. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent squares using a standard action. If an unseen target is in the designated square, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has pinpointed the unseen creature's current location. If the unseen creature moves, its location is once again unknown.
If a blinded creature is struck by an unseen foe, the blinded character pinpoints the location of the creature that struck him (until the unseen creature moves, of course). The only exception is if the unseen creature has a reach greater than 5 feet (in which case the blinded character knows the location of the unseen opponent, but has not pinpointed him) or uses a ranged attack (in which case the blinded character knows the general direction of the foe, but not his location).
A creature with the scent ability automatically pinpoints unseen creatures within 5 feet of its location.
Blinded(Condition):
Blinded: The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
Invisible(Condition):
Invisible: Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.
This delves into the mosh-pit that is stealth so if you abandon ship now, I can't hold a grudge.
Here's the setup. A character with Hide in Plain Sight(Ex.) while being chased, stops moving and rolls a stealth check (while being directly observed). Instead of relocating, he decides to simply remain stationary. Even though they fail their spot checks, one of the pursuers happens to have scent and locates the square the person is in or one just decides to be suspicious and attack the spot the character was in.
How is that attack resolved? I can find nothing about attacking something you can't see without having the prerequisite of being blinded or the target having invisibility. After all, being hidden by stealth does not say that it grants you any miss chance, concealment, invisibility or treat your unseeing plebians as blind.
Hide in Plain Sight(Ex) allows a character to make a stealth check "While being observed."
These are all the almost relevant sections I could find on attacking unseen foes in one way or another.
** spoiler omitted **...
You can make the check while being observed but if you don't end your turn in concealment or cover then your stealth ends.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I think the intent is he just gets total concealment.
OldSkoolRPG wrote:
Keiger wrote:
This delves into the mosh-pit that is stealth so if you abandon ship now, I can't hold a grudge.
Here's the setup. A character with Hide in Plain Sight(Ex.) while being chased, stops moving and rolls a stealth check (while being directly observed). Instead of relocating, he decides to simply remain stationary. Even though they fail their spot checks, one of the pursuers happens to have scent and locates the square the person is in or one just decides to be suspicious and attack the spot the character was in.
How is that attack resolved? I can find nothing about attacking something you can't see without having the prerequisite of being blinded or the target having invisibility. After all, being hidden by stealth does not say that it grants you any miss chance, concealment, invisibility or treat your unseeing plebians as blind.
Hide in Plain Sight(Ex) allows a character to make a stealth check "While being observed."
These are all the almost relevant sections I could find on attacking unseen foes in one way or another.
** spoiler omitted **...
You can make the check while being observed but if you don't end your turn in concealment or cover then your stealth ends.
You can make the check while being observed but if you don't end your turn in concealment or cover then your stealth ends.
Nothing in the stealth skill, short of saying that you can't stealth while observed, says that you are required to end your turn within cover or concealment to be stay hidden. Only breaking stealth by going from one source of cover/concealment to another without the use of Hide in Plain Sight requires that for you to remain hidden.
Despite this I have found that my book is outdated and the very spoiler on Stealth that I posted answered my own question. Stealth grants total concealment to creatures that succeed on their stealth check against creatures that fail their perception checks.
Concealment(Combat):
To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment.
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has concealment if his space is entirely within an effect that grants concealment. When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you, use the rules for determining concealment from ranged attacks.
In addition, some magical effects provide concealment against all attacks, regardless of whether any intervening concealment exists.
Concealment Miss Chance: Concealment gives the subject of a successful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment. Make the attack normally—if the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance d% roll to avoid being struck. Multiple concealment conditions do not stack.
Concealment and Stealth Checks: You can use concealment to make a Stealth check. Without concealment, you usually need cover to make a Stealth check.
Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can't attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).
You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.
Ignoring Concealment: Concealment isn't always effective. An area of dim lighting or darkness doesn't provide any concealment against an opponent with darkvision. Characters with low-light vision can see clearly for a greater distance than other characters with the same light source. Although invisibility provides total concealment, sighted opponents may still make Perception checks to notice the location of an invisible character. An invisible character gains a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if moving, or a +40 bonus on Stealth checks when not moving (even though opponents can't see you, they might be able to figure out where you are from other visual or auditory clues).
Varying Degrees of Concealment: Certain situations may provide more or less than typical concealment, and modify the miss chance accordingly.
And this feeds back into the spiral that is sneak attacks from stealth... ugh.
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
Hide In Plain Sight alters the conditions for making the check but says nothing about changing the requirements to end in cover or concealment.
If you pass his stealth check, then you see him and can attack normally. But if you fail against his stealth check, then you cannot attack him at all while directly targeting at least (fireballs and stuff are OK)
This is an odd outcome, but as far as I can see, it is RAW. Because even though you CAN attack an invisible opponent or one hiding in bushes (by total concealment rules), the reason why is DUE TO that total concealment.
This guy isn't actually concealed necessarily... so you can't invoke the total concealment rules. Since there are no other rules I know of allowing for attacking locations and hitting the people therein (talking about targeted attacks, of course), you simply can't do it, unlike in those other situations.
Note, however, that if he (unnecessarily) says he is using the hide in plain sight ability in a situation where he already did have total concealment, then you can still attack him. I'm talking above about a guy in an open field.
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
If the pursuers fail to beat the characters stealth check they treat him as if he had total concealment. Any attacks they wish to make would be resolved using those rules.
prd wrote:
Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can't attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).
So they can attack the square with a 50% miss chance, if they hit, they hit the character.
No. They have a 50% chance to be allowed to attempt to hit the character stealthing. That miss chance doesnt replace AC. It is in addition to. They have to succeed the 50% miss and then beat his ac to hit him
Yeah that's why I said if you do those things you "can attack them" not "you can hit them". Sorry if misleadingly worded perhaps to suggest it replaces the attack.
Nothing in the stealth skill, short of saying that you can't stealth while observed, says that you are required to end your turn within cover or concealment to be stay hidden.
PRD wrote:
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
