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After the eye-opening comments by Calethos, I began to understand why my archetypes were so failing... not only because I was trying to under-dog them to be viably acceptable, but because I was trying to merge them into a single archetype, losing a lot of their "theme" in the process... so, while still a work-in-progress, here's my enlightened attempt to do it again.
Notes:
Ifrit - The goal being to make them the the -best- at pyrokineticism. If you want a powerful blaster, this should fit the bill without breaking things in the process.
Oread - Lacking dex/con as a bonus, I made them pure-blade (like the Jaedai), and made sure they could use their bonus to strength to enhance their melee abilities, so they can actually dump dex now, and pump up con/str.
Sylph - The real 'utility' archetype of the class, not much different than my previous attempt, but this time with fewer penalties.
Undine - What the Chirurgen could have looked like, and still have been effective in combat. Good healers without sacrificing offense.
Suli - Unlimited on elements. Unlike Caletho's version earlier which tends to force them to focus on a single type of blast, I kept my generalized to all elements but at the huge price of reduced Utility wild talents.
Click HERE to see...
Would seriously love some input from anybody. :)
Note to self... Forgot class skills.
In my home game I added in alternate racial traits which increase their damage by a d6 (called Elemental Fury) but replaces Elemental Affinity. It worked pretty well for our Ifrit pyrokineticist.
My problem with these it is just tries to make them "good" not interesting. It's like you are just bumping up the dice to make them worthwhile. And even then a few of them don't seem to be all that worthwhile with the loss of expanded element. Suli look insane.
For example, Ifrit are fine if they could count as holding their blasts. When I missed that wording I thought Blistering Feint was the greatest thing ever made. The question then is, can you make something really interesting out of a Feinting Ifrit? Would that combo break the game? Can you change it while going for a similar feel?
My problem with these it is just tries to make them "good" not interesting. It's like you are just bumping up the dice to make them worthwhile. And even then a few of them don't seem to be all that worthwhile with the loss of expanded element. Suli look insane.
For example, Ifrit are fine if they could count as holding their blasts. When I missed that wording I thought Blistering Feint was the greatest thing ever made. The question then is, can you make something really interesting out of a Feinting Ifrit? Would that combo break the game? Can you change it while going for a similar feel?
Can you explain a bit? I thought the exact opposite... originally these were "interesting" and not good. The recent changes are to make them good and interesting, so that people would want to play them. To me they were already worthwhile, this wasn't an attempt to up damage, it was an attempt to make something I see as worthwhile, something others would still be willing to play. And of course, I tend to agree with the sentiment that n outsider of a particular element from which these powers are coming from, should be better than most others at using these powers.
What do you mean by Suli looking insane?
As for feinting, that takes a standard action that lowers the AC for a turn. You're basically sacrificing an attack to up the chance of a hit later. Since the kinetic blade is entirely fire damage, the blistering feint effect would negate the whole purpose of needing to take a standard action... it's a "free" feint. Yeah, that'd sound broken to me. :/
So, if I understand you at all, you want more "utility" in their combat via the archetype? At what sacrifice? What do they lose? Putting aside the obvious dislikes (Internal Buffer mostly), the only thematic thing for me to lose was expanded element, since they are suppose to stay with their element(s)... I still made sure they all had their composite blast, and paid for their lack of element diversity with a small power upgrade to their thematic use of the element (blasting for fire, melee for earth, utility for air, and healing for water).
To be fair, I'm not entirely happy with Suli, I didn't want to just add the +1d6 from their elemental assault, but upping the d6's to higher dice does seem a bit over the top, even if it is only once per day for a couple of rounds... but like I said... work-in-progress...
My problem with these it is just tries to make them "good" not interesting. It's like you are just bumping up the dice to make them worthwhile. And even then a few of them don't seem to be all that worthwhile with the loss of expanded element. Suli look insane.
For example, Ifrit are fine if they could count as holding their blasts. When I missed that wording I thought Blistering Feint was the greatest thing ever made. The question then is, can you make something really interesting out of a Feinting Ifrit? Would that combo break the game? Can you change it while going for a similar feel?
Can you explain a bit? I thought the exact opposite... originally these were "interesting" and not good. The recent changes are to make them good and interesting, so that people would want to play them. To me they were already worthwhile, this wasn't an attempt to up damage, it was an attempt to make something I see as worthwhile, something others would still be willing to play. And of course, I tend to agree with the sentiment that n outsider of a particular element from which these powers are coming from, should be better than most others at using these powers.
What do you mean by Suli looking insane?
As for feinting, that takes a standard action that lowers the AC for a turn. You're basically sacrificing an attack to up the chance of a hit later. Since the kinetic blade is entirely fire damage, the blistering feint effect would negate the whole purpose of needing to take a standard action... it's a "free" feint. Yeah, that'd sound broken to me. :/
So, if I understand you at all, you want more "utility" in their combat via the archetype? At what sacrifice? What do they lose? Putting aside the obvious dislikes (Internal Buffer mostly), the only thematic thing for me to lose was expanded element, since they are suppose to stay with their element(s)... I still made sure they all had...
Yes, utility or mechanical interaction would be nice. Think laterally. The Ifrit right now are just more damage, but what if they had some unique ability that worked for a species with a Cha bonus? What if they had additional utility talents or abilities that worked off a cult of personality character? You could loose Elemental Overflow or Metakinesis or... well, any of a loooot of class features.
Suli constantly have all elemental defenses, and as if they have put Burn into them. Without the downsides of Burn's HP limiters. Uuum, no. That is kinda ridiculous. You really need to spread out their abilities more. There are surely more elegant ways to handle it.
Yes, utility or mechanical interaction would be nice. Think laterally. The Ifrit right now are just more damage, but what if they had some unique ability that worked for a species with a Cha bonus? What if they had additional utility talents or abilities that worked off a cult of personality character? You could loose Elemental Overflow or Metakinesis or... well, any of a loooot of class features.
Suli constantly have all elemental defenses, and as if they have put Burn into them. Without the downsides of Burn's HP limiters. Uuum, no. That is kinda ridiculous. You really need to spread out their abilities more. There are surely more elegant ways to handle it.
No, you can't lose either Elemental Overflow or Metakinesis.
Suli may get constant defenses, but without burn, it's not more powerful than other kineticists who will use burn. And while true that the other kineticists take burn to do this, Suli have to earn their burn in combat (they can't prep for the fight to have overflow), and the other kineticists have much wider options, such as utility. Where is the "ridiculous"?
No, you can't lose either Elemental Overflow or Metakinesis.Yes, utility or mechanical interaction would be nice. Think laterally. The Ifrit right now are just more damage, but what if they had some unique ability that worked for a species with a Cha bonus? What if they had additional utility talents or abilities that worked off a cult of personality character? You could loose Elemental Overflow or Metakinesis or... well, any of a loooot of class features.
Suli constantly have all elemental defenses, and as if they have put Burn into them. Without the downsides of Burn's HP limiters. Uuum, no. That is kinda ridiculous. You really need to spread out their abilities more. There are surely more elegant ways to handle it.
Why not?
Suli may get constant defenses, but without burn, it's not more powerful than other kineticists who will use burn. And while true that the other kineticists take burn to do this, Suli have to earn their burn in combat (they can't prep for the fight to have overflow), and the other kineticists have much wider options, such as utility. Where is the "ridiculous"?
Not everyone pours all their burn into elemental defenses. At 2nd level you have DR 1/adamantine, 20% arrow miss chance, and +2 AC. With virtually no downside. Every Suli would dip into that for 2 lvls no question. As you level you also get free burn put into these defenses more than making up for the reduced burn. And you start with all the elements. I don't see how only loosing a few Utility Powers makes up for how much you are gaining there.
"Why not?"
Because kineticists are already struggling to keep up with other classes on damage, and damage is their main thing. The only way to make losing Elemental Overflow or Metakinesis viable is to replace them with something that keeps the same damage levels. So basically, replacing them means adding a whole bunch of new rules or systems, which comes closer to turning it into a hybrid than an archetype.
Not sure if you saw my previous incarnation of this, but I sacrificed composite blasts for the elementalists, and that proved to be far too much of a downgrade. It removed Kineticists from the competitive level of the game.
"Not everyone pours all their burn into elemental defenses. At 2nd level you have DR 1/adamantine, 20% arrow miss chance, and +2 AC. With virtually no downside. Every Suli would dip into that for 2 lvls no question. As you level you also get free burn put into these defenses more than making up for the reduced burn. And you start with all the elements. I don't see how only loosing a few Utility Powers makes up for how much you are gaining there."
The reduced burn was placed there because of the "free" burn. That's not a balancing factor of the defenses, it's a balancing factor of the free burn. Replacing the utilities is partially paid for by these extra defenses (Ie: 3 "free" Expanded Defense utility talents, but with limitations on those talents).
My problem is that, I really want them to be generalized. Suli are Suli because they're not specialized in any single element. They're the amalgam of the elements, so they need all 4 blasts and defenses thematically. Again, not an effort to make them insane powerful. I feel I need to give them all 4 blasts and all 4 defenses at the same time. My first option was to force them to take burn for even the 1st level of the defense (no effect at all unless/until they used burn), but felt I was overkilling the balance factor there. So rather than do that, I thought I'd just prevent them from spending burn, but realized that too was overkilling... so rather than give them a choice on burn, I'd automate it and cut their burn per day down to offset that "Free" burn.
However, I'm open to suggestions on how to grant them generalized defenses if you or anyone has a better idea.
"Why not?"
Because kineticists are already struggling to keep up with other classes on damage, and damage is their main thing. The only way to make losing Elemental Overflow or Metakinesis viable is to replace them with something that keeps the same damage levels. So basically, replacing them means adding a whole bunch of new rules or systems, which comes closer to turning it into a hybrid than an archetype.
Not sure if you saw my previous incarnation of this, but I sacrificed composite blasts for the elementalists, and that proved to be far too much of a downgrade. It removed Kineticists from the competitive level of the game.
"Not everyone pours all their burn into elemental defenses. At 2nd level you have DR 1/adamantine, 20% arrow miss chance, and +2 AC. With virtually no downside. Every Suli would dip into that for 2 lvls no question. As you level you also get free burn put into these defenses more than making up for the reduced burn. And you start with all the elements. I don't see how only loosing a few Utility Powers makes up for how much you are gaining there."
The reduced burn was placed there because of the "free" burn. That's not a balancing factor of the defenses, it's a balancing factor of the free burn. Replacing the utilities is partially paid for by these extra defenses (Ie: 3 "free" Expanded Defense utility talents, but with limitations on those talents).
My problem is that, I really want them to be generalized. Suli are Suli because they're not specialized in any single element. They're the amalgam of the elements, so they need all 4 blasts and defenses thematically. Again, not an effort to make them insane powerful. I feel I need to give them all 4 blasts and all 4 defenses at the same time. My first option was to force them to take burn for even the 1st level of the defense (no effect at all unless/until they used burn), but felt I was overkilling the balance factor there. So rather than do that, I thought I'd just prevent them from spending burn, but...
I already said my basic idea, spread them out. They don't need all their class features off the bat. Also, be more willing to cut amazing class features in favor of granting amazing class features. Look at how Elemental Ascetic tries to do it.
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What do you mean by Suli looking insane?
Getting all four elemental defenses is huge. Being unable to spend burn on them isn't really a disadvantage when they scale as if you had spent burn on them.
Getting access to four different simple blasts from level one eliminates the kineticist's biggest disadvantage - lack of flexibility in type of damage dealt. DR and energy resistances are a lot less of a pain when you can switch between three energy types, plus all three types of physical damage. You can also pick out the best infusions, where a standard kineticist will usually have to deal with their chosen blast not having a stellar infusion at every level.
Increasing your damage die with elemental assault is a neat way to use the ability without weapons, but it also amounts to a bigger damage boost, especially at high levels. When you first get the ability at level 7, it's an extra 4 points of damage per simple blast, and 8 points per composite blast, and it appears to work both at range and with kinetic blade (unlike the usual ability which is melee only). At level 15, it's 16 points of extra damage per simple and 32 per composite blast. Compare to average 3.5 points damage per attack for the usual ability.
The burn cap might cause problems with being unable to access elemental overflow at high levels, but I'm not sure whether that'll be a good balancing factor, especially with energy blasts relying a less on accuracy.
The loss of half your utilities isn't nearly as big a deal as the loss of all your utilities. You can still pick up a few gems, and you get the option to take more utilities using the Extra Wild Talent feat, which is useful in making sure you get the low-level pre-reqs for whatever high-level stuff you want. Pick up air's leap at 2, wings of air at 6, a feat for earth climb at 7, earth glide at 10, and you're super mobile. Another feat gives you tremorsense. If you can't take extra talent this is a bigger disadvantage, but it also exacerbates the kineticist problem "what do I do with my feats"?
My problem is that, I really want them to be generalized. Suli are Suli because they're not specialized in any single element. They're the amalgam of the elements, so they need all 4 blasts and defenses thematically. Again, not an effort to make them insane powerful. I feel I need to give them all 4 blasts and all 4 defenses at the same time. My first option was to force them to take burn for even the 1st level of the defense (no effect at all unless/until they used burn), but felt I was overkilling the balance factor there. So rather than do that, I thought I'd just prevent them from spending burn, but realized that too was overkilling... so rather than give them a choice on burn, I'd automate it and cut their burn per day down to offset that "Free" burn.
However, I'm open to suggestions on how to grant them generalized defenses if you or anyone has a better idea.
Ideas:
1) Give them access to all defenses, but only let them use one at a time. Switching could take a standard action, or an immediate action if you spend burn. Either add the ability to use additional defenses at levels 7 and 15, or make it a feat or wild talent.
2) To represent the fact that specialization makes them a little less strong with any one element, require them to treat all non-universal wild talents as one level higher than usual. This means that instead of being able to take wings of air at level 6 they'll have to wait until level 10 like any other character that has taken air as a secondary element. Consider giving them access to another utility talent at level 2 - something granting a diplomacy bonus when speaking with genies or elementals would be thematic - or else they'll only be able to take skilled kineticist at that level. They'll also have to wait to cherry-pick prime infusions, though since their infusion progression isn't delayed it's only a 2-level wait. There are enough 1st level universal infusions that you don't need to add extra choices for level 1 and 3.
3) Reduce the bonus from elemental assault. Consider allowing the kineticist to use elemental assault to do things other than add damage (for example, activating an additional defense for the duration).
I would not change the burn cap as it's likely to do unforeseen things to how the class functions.
Thanks Weirdo, that's exactly the sort of advice I needed. :) You're right... I'm treating them like "specialist" in all 4 elements... I shouldn't. They have quick/easy access to all 4 elements, but it should not be better than other kineticists...
I am much much happier with this change.
Added 2 class skills.
Spread defenses out to collect at higher levels.
Merged elemental assault into defenses a bit
Reduced damage to normal for elemental assault, but added a "burst" effect (crit = +1d10) and limited it to their sole composite blast
Gave them their own, 4-element composite blast
Replaced Omnikinesis
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Yes, that's an improvement.
What did you replace Omnikinesis with? It doesn't seem to say anything about it on the document. Given that these are native outsiders, you might model something off of the "transform into an outsider" type capstones - except turning into an elemental with appropriate immunities (including damage of your elemental type)?
In general I think these archetypes would be improved with a little more interface with these races' extraplanar heritage beyond the elemental theme. Most of their racial archetypes are essentially just an elemental focus (eg watersinger bard, student of stone monk, sky druid), and that works for classes that aren't really element-focused. But it's hard to add more of an element to a single-element kineticist without simply making it "better." Wishcrafter and shaitan binder incorporate the wishing aspect, but that may or may nor be appropriate here. Maybe a plane shift effect, an improvement or extension on reverse shift?
Another thought. The big weakness of the pyrokineticist is creatures with immunity to fire, and some fire outsiders are smiths. Could the ifrit archetype get the option to take a metal composite blast without taking earth? Or maybe a custom "hot metal" blast that is physical, deals half fire, half B/S/P, and can be used with fire infusions and maybe one or two metal-appropriate infusions?
Sorry Weirdo, my last edit didn't seem to get properly uploaded. The Omnikinesis replacement was only for Sulis.
I realized that basically I had sacrificed 5 of their Utilities for 3 "Extra Defense", now spaced out. So, I added the "Free burn" on defenses as the 16th level replacement, and the 20th level, since it coincides with Omnikinesis, was replaced along with Omnikinesis with:
Omnielemental (Su)
The suli can choose which elements her Elemental Devastation composite blast uses, allowing it to be of just one element, or any combination of elements. The choice of elements is still limited to the four elements granted by the blast. If she chooses to use all 4 elements, she may add any infusion she wants to the blast, as long as she accepts the burn of the infusion, and the infusion works in conjunction with at least one of the 4 elements. This replaces the omnikinesis class feature.
Anyhoots, I'm working on some of your more recent suggestions, and will let you know when the next edit is uploaded. :)
Your Suli is the only Kineticist that can deal acid damage with a Kinetic Blast. I get that Suli do acid with their Elemental Assault, the Kineticist doesn't deal acid damage, instead dealing a physical type (bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing). What's the reasoning behind allowing the Suli to deal acid damage?
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Omnielemental looks good.
More ideas for the others:
I really like the idea of the strength-based oread archetype, but I think it doesn't kick in early enough. You don't get even 1/2 strength to damage until level 7. You also don't get the natural armour bonus until level 7, despite the fact your AC will be below a dex-based kineticist from level 1 - and you'll need the AC more for melee. I would suggest granting the natural armour bonus earlier, and modelling the earth hammer more or less after devastating infusion - less base damage, but gets strength added from level 1.
Without the ability to make ranged blasts, the oread also becomes ineligible for most form infusions, so it might make sense to trade out about half their infusions for something or other (bonus feats such as Toughness, Cleave, Power Attack, oread racial feats; or perhaps grant the natural armour in exchange for these)?
Playing with how they gain/use burn might lead to some interesting stuff. For example, the oread might be able to consume gems to reduce burn (perhaps as part of gathering power). I really like the idea of an ifrit who can cause his targets to take some of the burn for him - but the target gets a save, and if they make their save the ifrit takes extra burn!
Your Suli is the only Kineticist that can deal acid damage with a Kinetic Blast. I get that Suli do acid with their Elemental Assault, the Kineticist doesn't deal acid damage, instead dealing a physical type (bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing). What's the reasoning behind allowing the Suli to deal acid damage?
To keep it Energy. If I put b/p/s, or any one of those, it automatically switches to physical, and since she's better at defense than other kineticists, I wanted to avoid the bonus damage a physical blast does. And, as you noticed, it's thematic for the race, if not for the class.
I really like the idea of the strength-based oread archetype, but I think it doesn't kick in early enough. You don't get even 1/2 strength to damage until level 7. You also don't get the natural armour bonus until level 7, despite the fact your AC will be below a dex-based kineticist from level 1 - and you'll need the AC more for melee. I would suggest granting the natural armour bonus earlier, and modelling the earth hammer more or less after devastating infusion - less base damage, but gets strength added from level 1.
Without the ability to make ranged blasts, the oread also becomes ineligible for most form infusions, so it might make sense to trade out about half their infusions for something or other (bonus feats such as Toughness, Cleave, Power Attack, oread racial feats; or perhaps grant the natural armour in exchange for these)?
Playing with how they gain/use burn might lead to some interesting stuff. For example, the oread might be able to consume gems to reduce burn (perhaps as part of gathering power). I really like the idea of an ifrit who can cause his targets to take some of the burn for him - but the target gets a save, and if they make their save the ifrit takes extra burn!
I agree about the Oread, and had forgotten not only about the lower AC for dex, but that I intended to let them wear all forms of armor (but not shields). Similarly about the form infusions, I agree but had not thought of this before... I had considered a way to make Deadly Earth and Rare Metal work into their weapons, but ran into the question of total-damage. My problem is that this is potentially overpowered already... We all know that a really solid kineticist build are the ones that use the blade instead of blasts. Full damage, multiple times a round with a weapon that makes any other melee weapon seem weak. At first I was making them qualify as having levels in fighter equal to their levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats, but that was way too much, I also weighed in adjusting their critical chance, but again... that was way too much. I'm afraid that giving them more offensively will break things. My test build ended with a 30 Str/Con, and that's +10 damage per-hit with a solid to-hit chance (Fighters are 20+10(Str)+2(ImpWeapFoc)+5(Enh)-6(PowerAttack)=31 and the Oread is at 15+10(Str)+6(Overflow)+1(WeapFoc)=32 without needing to even waste a feat (WeaponFinesse). So better than most fighting classes to hit (Except on the 1st hit of course) and able to do even more damage. Obviously I want them to seem more interesting for blade than other kineticists, but not enough to seem like they are the only interesting choice.
So, am I wrong on this? Is giving them that bonus earlier still balanced? I realize that Elemental Annihilator is even better, but at a huge sacrifice... I was hoping to keep the earth(utility) theme with this class. I'm concerned about giving them more.
However, you make a fair point in that they really won't use -any- form infusion... :/ I'll think on it, though if you have ideas, I'm obviously very open to them. :)