Damiel and Potion of Healing redux (or: what does "process its effects" actually entail)


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

We have two rules that seem to have an unknown order due to potential ambiguity with what "process its effects" means in the second rule:

WotR rulebook, p10 wrote:
Always perform the first action required by a power before performing any other action. For example, if a card says “Recharge this card to recharge a card from your discard pile,” recharge the card you’re playing before recharging the card from your discard pile.
FAQ wrote:
When you reveal a card, it does not leave your hand. When you display a card, it leaves your hand immediately. When you play a card by performing any other action, set it aside while you process its effects. For example, a spell might tell you to discard it, then allow you to succeed at a check to recharge it instead; set it aside until you resolve the check that determines whether or not you recharge it. While set aside, a card does not count as being in your hand, your discard pile, your deck, or anywhere else.

Furthermore, to illustrate the point, I'm going to be making use of Damiel and Potion of Healing. Their relevant powers are as follows:

Damiel wrote:
When you play a card that has the Alchemical trait and would banish it, you may recharge it instead.
Potion of Healing wrote:
Banish this card and choose a character at your location. That character may shuffle 1d4 random cards from his discard pile into his deck.

Before the second rule/FAQ existed (e.g. in Skull & Shackles), the ordering of Damiel playing Potion of Healing on himself was this:

1. Play Potion of Healing.
2. Recharge Potion of Healing.
3. Shuffle 1d4 random cards from Damiel's discard into his deck.

This ends up with a state where the Potion is shuffled into the deck and no longer necessarily on the bottom.

Taking the FAQ into consideration, however, how does that change? This depends on what "process its effects" actually entails. If process its effects entails actually performing all of the actions on the card, that would be different than simply reading over the card to see if it would possibly end up elsewhere. I'm personally in favor of the first reading because it makes the most sense to me, however such a reading does impact what happens to Damiel (and imo for the better).

Should "process its effects" actually mean "resolve all relevant powers on the card" then the ordering becomes this:
1. Play Potion of Healing.
2. Set Potion of Healing aside (recharging the potion counts as "performing any other action").
3. Shuffle 1d4 random cards from Damiel's discard into his deck
4. Recharge Potion of Healing.

The end result of this is that the Potion remains the bottom card of his deck (which imo is what should happen anyway as it makes the most sense, why would you finish mixing up your new potion halfway through drinking it?)

Should "process its effects" actually mean "read over the effects to see if something might cause the final location of the card to be unknown right now" (e.g. spells with recharge checks -- the example given in the FAQ), then the ordering becomes this:
1. Play Potion of Healing
2. Set it aside, then read through Potion of Healing; see that it is fully known what is going to happen to the card (at this point you've finished "processing its effects").
3. Recharge Potion of Healing.
4. Shuffle 1d4 random cards from Damiel's discard into his deck.

The end result of this is the same as it was before the FAQ was issued, where the Potion is shuffled back into the deck.

So, which is it? I'm personally in favor of the first ruling, where the Potion would remain the bottom card of the deck, and "process its effects" actually means that you finish resolving all of the effects on the card (I didn't even consider that there was ambiguity in that statement until other people said they saw it differently, but alas). As one final argument in my favor, I'll leave with the dictionary definition of process:

Dictionary wrote:

process verb

1. perform a series of mechanical or chemical operations on (something) in order to change or preserve it.

So "while you process its effects" can be "while you perform the series of actions listed on the card" which makes it (to me) crystal-clear that it's set aside until everything on the card is done. This interpretation does not clash with the first rule quoted, as we did indeed do the first action first (recharging the Potion) -- and that first action is what caused us to set the card aside.

Note: This thread was split off from Putrid Ooze, there is some additional arguments and context on that thread.


I've always leaned towards the second since there is no ambiguity about what will happen with the card after it is played.

If another character was playing it, you would not set it aside. You would immediately banish the card and then process the results. If the card said "Recharge this card..." instead of "Banish this card..." you wouldn't set it aside, and Damiel effectively does a find/replace on Banish with Recharge.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hmm, good point. Except, I would still set it aside if it said "Recharge this card..." because that's what the rule tells me to do (recharging is not revealing or displaying so also counts as part of "any other action"). Thinking about this more, Staff of Minor Healing would also be impacted by that rule (which says "Recharge this card to recharge a random card from your discard pile") and it's quite clear that it is meant that the staff goes on the bottom of your deck first, followed by the random card from your discard because the wording nearly matches the other rule quoted which tells us in clear words how we should resolve that exact situation. However, with the interpretation I'm pushing, that would be the other way around (e.g. the staff would be set aside, then the random card is recharged, then the staff is recharged).

That being said, if setting it aside is only meant to happen when it is ambiguous where the card can end up (e.g. it requires a check or something), I feel that should be stated in the rules. The rule as written says you do it no matter what, even if you know already where it's going to be going. Right now by a strict RAW reading the two rules quoted above contradict each other, the "recharge a card to recharge a card from your discard pile" example says the card in your hand is recharged first, whereas the set aside rule says the card in your discard pile is recharged first unless "process its effects" doesn't actually follow the dictionary definition of "process".


I agree. The FAQ is not worded correctly for what they want, based on other things that they have said elsewhere. Staff of Minor healing is definitely supposed to be recharged before the card from your discard, for example.

Look at what the FAQ is addressing:

FAQ wrote:
Revealing and displaying happen instantly. Every other action waits until you know what action it really is.

It is just intended to relate to times when there is ambiguity about how the card will be disposed of. The rules could definitely be more clear, but the FAQ should only apply when there is more than one possible disposition for the card.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yes, the non-rules text in the FAQ makes it more clear that is what was meant. I hope that the rules text portion of it can be updated to reflect that, in the meantime that bit of exposition is good enough by me to know exactly what the intent was and how it should therefore be played if the question ever comes up.

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