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Have a question for you folks.
I've got a rogue player who picked up a Shadowform Belt for himself.
Now, the belt specifically grants the Incorporeality rules to the operator of said belt. The rogue intended to utilize this to set up touch based sneak attacks (using his magic, but not incorporeal weapon) and avoid damage from anyone not using a magic weapon.
I originally thought this would cause problems since with ghosts they can't attack physical objects unless they have a ghost touch item, but there's nothing specifically in incorporeal write up that forbids attacks.
It reads...
...they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment...
I allowed the touch attack, but at 1/2 damage (since thats how magic weapons work on incorporeal entities).
Does anyone have any information on this?
If the rogue is using magic to deliver touch attacks why does that quoted section even matter?
Also there is no reason to make the rogue deal 1/2 damage, it doesn't mention that at all in the description for Incorporeal .
Why would this rogue suddenly be making touch attacks?
He's making normal attacks that ignore the defender's armor, shield, and natural armor. Yeah, sure, that equates to attacking the defender's Touch AC, but the attack itself is not a "touch attack" - it's a normal attack.
It will use DEX to replace STR (for attack and damage) and it will be made against the Touch AC, but it's otherwise a normal attack roll.
Ghosts (the monster template) have special rules that weaken their attacks (50% damage if it's magical, 0% damage if it's not), but that is a feature of ghosts, not a feature of being incorporeal.
As far as I can tell from the rules, your rogue could stab the guy with an ordinary 2gp dagger and do full damage, using DEX to hit and for damage, plus sneak attack, normally, rolling against the target's Touch AC.
Maybe that's why the belt costs so much. At least it only functions for 10 rounds per day.
Here's the full rules:
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.
An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.
So let's see here: all attacks that an Incoporeal creature makes ignores Natural Armor, base Armor, Shields, etc. So all attacks are essentially Touch Attacks (though Force Effects get the green card). Nothing in the rules state that its damage is reduced, so reducing effects by 50% isn't really a fair way to rule it, especially when players becoming Incorporeal is a very rare occurrence. Or at least, becoming Incorporeal and having a positive impact on the story.
The 50% reduction only applies to enemies hitting the Incorporeal creature. It might also interest you to know that a Paladin's Smite Evil does not bypass that reduction. See Relevant FAQ here. So Ghost Touch weapons or half-damage, period.
If it hides in an object, it gets total concealment, though if it emerges to attack, they receive cover bonuses instead. The incorporeal creature still gets full modifiers and all of that to his attacks.
Also note that moving or manipulating an item (or an opponent), such as with repositioning, grappling, etc. are all specific actions in the Actions table. The entry you listed means that they cannot take those actions against Corporeal creatures (unless those items have the Ghost Touch property, which specify that Incorporeals can interact with and use said items as if they were Incorporeal).
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Let's see:
"Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body."
So how he can damage someone with a weapon as he has no ability to wield it?
He can use spell normally, as long as they don't require material components, but not weapons. Or armor. Or any equipment.
The Shadowform Belt is a badly written item. RAW, the rogue become incorporeal and all his gear fall to the ground.
Probably the RAI is that the rogue equipment become incorporeal too. fine. Now it is unable to damage people. No body, no structure, ho harm.
This item, to work need way more extensive rules than "Furthermore, as a swift action, its wearer can become incorporeal."
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Let's see:
"Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body."
So how he can damage someone with a weapon as he has no ability to wield it?
He can use spell normally, as long as they don't require material components, but not weapons. Or armor. Or any equipment.The Shadowform Belt is a badly written item. RAW, the rogue become incorporeal and all his gear fall to the ground.
Probably the RAI is that the rogue equipment become incorporeal too. fine. Now it is unable to damage people. No body, no structure, ho harm.This item, to work need way more extensive rules than "Furthermore, as a swift action, its wearer can become incorporeal."
This is true. I'm pretty sure anybody reading it sees the difficulty and ignores it in favor of RAI: The wearer and all his gear becomes incorporeal. The alternative is to read it your way, the wearer becomes incorporeal and all his gear falls to the ground, including the belt, which means he becomes corporeal again - but naked and disarmed. That's a pretty big waste of 110,000gp; no doubt that this is exactly how this should NOT work.
As for the "unable to damage people", that's clearly wrong; nothing in the rules for incorporeal includes this rule at all. It's hard for us to damage incorporeals, but it's easy for them to damage us.
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Incorporeal creatures without a ghost touch weapon cant use said weapon on corporeal creatures unless it is a ghost touch one, and the ones that do direct damage are only allowed because the monster was written that way with some type of attack that says it can. I mean we can FAQ this(with regard to an incorporeal person being able to punch someone as an example), but I am sure the answer will be no.
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As for the "unable to damage people", that's clearly wrong; nothing in the rules for incorporeal includes this rule at all. It's hard for us to damage incorporeals, but it's easy for them to damage us.
Incorporeal creatures without a ghost touch weapon cant use said weapon on corporeal creatures unless it is a ghost touch one, and the ones that do direct damage are only allowed because the monster was written that way with some type of attack that says it can. I mean we can FAQ this(with regard to an incorporeal person being able to punch someone as an example), but I am sure the answer will be no.
wraithstrike has given you the same reply I would have given. The incorporeal creature has no substance, and it is incapable to interact with the solid word in any way unless he is using magic or supernatural abilities.
An incorporeal weapon can't harm a corporeal creature unless it has the ghost touch ability.
The problem is that the author of the belt hasn't thought about the consequences of being incorporeal or someone has removed the relevant text as being redundant during the editing process.
The incorporeal subtype and incorporeal special quality are meant for monsters and they don't include the information needed to have them work on PC that have a way larger number of abilities and possibilities.Giving the ability to become incorporeal to the PC require a way larger quantity of informations.