Constructs and Negative Levels

[THUNDER_Jeffro]

Constructs have immunity to a lot of effects, in general. I was reviewing the construct subtype and noticed that they do not specifically have a listed immunity to negative levels, unless you count their immunity to energy drain.

Construct Subtype:

No Constitution score. Any DCs or other Statistics that rely on a Constitution score treat a construct as having a score of 10 (no bonus or penalty).
Low-light vision.
Darkvision 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
Immunity to bleed, disease, death effects, necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Cannot heal damage on its own, but often can be repaired via exposure to a certain kind of effect (see the creature's description for details) or through the use of the Craft Construct feat. Constructs can also be healed through spells such as make whole. A construct with the fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality.
Not subject to ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, energy drain, or nonlethal damage.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless).
Not at risk of death from massive damage. Immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or less.
A construct cannot be raised or resurrected.
A construct is hard to destroy, and gains bonus hit points based on size, as shown on the following table.
Proficient with its natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with any weapon mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with no armor.
Constructs do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

Could a construct gain negative levels from a source that is not a necromancy effect or energy drain? Am I missing something that says "Constructs are immune to negative levels, period"?

[Dragonchess Player]

"Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless)."

Negative levels require a Fort save to remove. Also, energy drain and negative levels are basically the same thing:

Core Rulebook wrote:

Energy Drain and Negative Levels

Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy; this dreadful attack results in "negative levels." These cause a character to take a number of penalties.

For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.

A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.

Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.

[Byakko]

I disagree.

The immunity to effects with Fortitude saves only coves things which require a Fort save on application, imho. Whether they might require some sort of Fort save later is moot.

While Energy Drain typically causes Negative Levels, this doesn't mean they're the same thing. For example, Raise Dead also causes negative levels, but I certainly wouldn't classify this as an Energy Drain effect.

Quote:

Energy Drain (Su) This attack saps a living opponent's vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature's description specifies how many). ...

Still, I imagine most things which might cause negative levels would be prevented by a construct's immunities. THUNDER_Jeffro, was there a specific spell or effect you had in mind?

[THUNDER_Jeffro]

Byakko, yes, there was. I'm curious about an intelligent construct with levels in the Overwhelming Soul archetype for Kineticist. I'm curious if a construct would be immune to the negative levels from being forced to take burn as described in the Mental Prowess ability.

Excerpt from Mental Prowess:

She can't choose to accept burn, though she can use wild talents with a burn cost if she can reduce that cost to 0 points with abilities such as gather power and infusion specialization. If she would be forced to accept burn against her will (for example, if she fails a concentration check), instead of taking burn she takes 1 temporary negative level, which never kills her and can't be removed with restoration or greater restoration, but which disappears automatically after 24 hours. At 6th level, once per day, she can reduce the total burn cost of any wild talent by 1.

The negative levels do not originate from a negative energy effect. I just always figured constructs would be immune to negative levels, but it appears that they're just immune to 99% of things that would cause them.

[Byakko]

Yep, I agree with your assessment.

Makes sense from a balance viewpoint too, at least in this specific case.

[Joesi]

Yeah cases where level reduction is flat out applied would not fall under the scope of energy drain.

It's sort of like how constructs are immune to ability drain, but are not immune to ability penalties

[illyume]

Or similar to how undead aren't specifically immune to nausea, just 99% of the methods for inflicting it.

[Joesi]

This post is getting off-topic but: It actually bothers me that various creatures are immune to things like stun/paralyze effects and mind-affecting effects, and effects that require fortitude saves, but generally don't seem to be considered to be immune to dazing (because it's not explicitly stated, and that's a valid excuse). Considering how dazed is supposed to be like a weaker version of stunned, it feels proper to me that things are immune to all those other sort of effects should be immune to dazed.

Same sort of thing with Nausea. In fact the argument seems even stronger for nausea. That said, are there even any possible ways of even getting nauseated that doesn't offer a fort save or that isn't considered to be poison effect though?