is a bard performance a hostile action? if a potential enemy pass a will save to be fascinated, does he attack?

[aldrium]

Hello,

I'm playing a bard and I don't know if the group is interpreting the rules in the good way.
The problem is that for the DM if I fail fascinating someone he automatically take my action as hostile and either he attacks either he ends the fascination of those who failed the will save (holding a weapon).
For me a bardic performance is a trick that can be hide or is not obvious (the performance fail to fascinate or keep the attention of the audience).
Is there any rule that support one or the other interpretation?
I'm not talking of using fascinate in a combat situation, but with guard, in a bar or on a discussion before a battle.

thanks for your comments.

[CampinCarl9127]

It depends on the intelligence of your enemy. If you try to fascinate a wizard and fail, you're probably going to eat a fireball. If you try to fascinate an ogre and fail, he knows you tried something but he doesn't know what.

[Diego Rossi]

PRD wrote:

Each creature within range receives a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard's level + the bard's Cha modifier) to negate the effect.

...
Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability. Fascinate relies on audible and visual components in order to function.

For the definition of invisibility and sanctuary it is an attack.

For someone that can recognize what happened it is an hostile action, but recognizing it is not automatic. It is a SU ability, not SP, so while the targets felt a hostile force trying to affect their mind they don't know automatically the source. There is a guy performing. If that happen in an already tense situation it is reasonable, in a magical world, to assume he tried something.
If you are participating to a soirée at the opera it is way less obvious.
It is all a matter of contest.

If you are using it as a weapon at the start of a battle it is reasonable for the guys that saved to assume that the guy that is chanting and gesturing had something to do with the attack to their minds.

[aldrium]

thanks for the answers.
I would like to add some informations in order to know when it reasonable to use fascinate.
4 potential enemies and I can fascinate 3 (level 8) using oratory as the mean to fascinate. is the fourth gay aware of what I'm doing? if you think the answer is yes, could I try to use bluff to hide my intentions?
In my point of view a performance is still a performance...for example a guy who speak or dance so magically well that you can't stop looking or listening at him.

thanks

[Crimeo]

Yes, any spell is an attack by definition if it does any of the following things:

1) Damages an opponent.
2) Involves a resisting saving throw of any kind.
3) "Harms" an opponent.
4) "Hampers" an opponent.

This is actually true of any action, so even things like bull rushes are also attacks, for being actions that hamper at best. Arguably, things like sabotaging wheel axles of a caravan would be attacks as well, though you could say it maybe doesn't count until it actually begins hampering them, obviously those last two subjective undefined terms get fuzzy. You could also argue about "combat" due to "combat actions." Anything you're doing during an existing initiative roll I can't see as being anything but objectively a combat action, but things done like sabotage may not be depending on GM's definition of "combat" which AFAIK isn't ever explicitly defined (it's initiative, but it doesn't tell you very clearly when to roll initiative)

But anyway, I digress. A bardic performance action, during combat initiative order, which has a resisting throw, is unambiguously an attack.

From CRB:

Quote:

Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don't damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don't harm anyone.

[Diego Rossi]

aldrium wrote:

thanks for the answers.

I would like to add some informations in order to know when it reasonable to use fascinate.
4 potential enemies and I can fascinate 3 (level 8) using oratory as the mean to fascinate. is the fourth gay aware of what I'm doing? if you think the answer is yes, could I try to use bluff to hide my intentions?
In my point of view a performance is still a performance...for example a guy who speak or dance so magically well that you can't stop looking or listening at him.

thanks

Note that you don't need to use the perform skill to use (most of) the bard performances.

It depend on the situation and the abilities of your enemy if you are noticed or not.
He succeed at a free sense motive skill check to notice the change in behavior of his companions?
You are already in a tense situation and you start acting weird?
How intelligent he is?

It is an ask your GM situation.

[My Self]

CampinCarl9127 wrote:

It depends on the intelligence of your enemy. If you try to fascinate a wizard and fail, you're probably going to eat a fireball. If you try to fascinate an ogre and fail, he knows you tried something but he doesn't know what.

Wizards don't make you eat fireballs. Wizards make fire monsters eat you.

Seriously, though, don't mess with the wizard.

[CBDunkerson]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Note that you don't need to use the perform skill to use (most of) the bard performances.

"Bardic Performance: A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired."

You don't need to roll the perform skill for most of them, but you are still using it. That is, some sort of performance is involved. You can't just stand there seemingly doing nothing and have the bardic performance effect manifest.