Restore corpse and butchered animals.


Advice


It has been suggested by some folks that a way to unlimited would be to butcher an animal then restore its corpse and repeat.

Does the butchering process leave enough of the animal to even be called a corpse?

If this works a single cow can provide meat for 3 to 5 hundred people forever with a singe casting and some purification cantrips.

If skin can be harvested each time that is free leather.


Restore corpse only restores just enough flesh to allow the corpse to qualify as a zombie instead of a skeleton if it's reanimated (that's what the spell is explicitly for). The spell also specified that the restored flesh is partially rotten.


Strictly speaking the magic does what it says it does. It allows a corpse that couldn't be animated as a zombie because it doesn't have enough flesh to be animated as a zombie. There is no information on the nutritional value (if any) of the magically created rotten flesh and no mention of skin at all.

One could of course interpret things as you have, that the restored corpse is fundamentally identical to a regular mostly fresh corpse, with everything that that implies, but you certainly don't have to view it that way.

Pathfinder is focused on fun adventures for PCs. It isn't focused on how the existence of magic would alter worlds and economies. If you want to play a game in a quasi-medieval feeling world, then it is probably best to assume that logical conclusions that would alter the world (such as endless beef from restore corpse) don't work. If you want to explore the implications of some spells and game in a Tippyverse type world that is cool too, but it does present a different feeling.


Michael Gentry wrote:
Restore corpse only restores just enough flesh to allow the corpse to qualify as a zombie instead of a skeleton if it's reanimated (that's what the spell is explicitly for). The spell also specified that the restored flesh is partially rotten.

It still restores some flesh (you require a mostly intact corpse to make a zombie), and rotted food can be purified with the purify food and drink cantrip.

Scarab Sages

It works. It probably tastes like rotted meat despite the purification, and would be extremely unpleasant. It would keep you alive, but why bother when you you can more easily just cast dream feast or goodberry instead?


As a desperate attempt to fend off starvation, maybe, but I just can't see it as a viable way to mass-produce food for a population. The economics (wonky as they are in this game) just don't work.

A cow is roughly 40 cubic feet of meat. Purify food and drink affects one cubic foot per caster level, so your village cleric will have to cast it multiple times to make sure the carcass is safe to eat. In the cheapest possible scenario, you're paying a 1st-level caster 10 gp to cast restore corpse once, then 200 gp to cast purify food and drink 40 times in a row.

For that kind of money, you could have purchased more than 400 steak dinners (a good meal is 5 sp). For that matter, you could have purchased 20 live cows.


Prestidigitation and suddenly it tastes much better.


Michael Gentry wrote:

As a desperate attempt to fend off starvation, maybe, but I just can't see it as a viable way to mass-produce food for a population. The economics (wonky as they are in this game) just don't work.

A cow is roughly 40 cubic feet of meat. Purify food and drink affects one cubic foot per caster level, so your village cleric will have to cast it multiple times to make sure the carcass is safe to eat. In the cheapest possible scenario, you're paying a 1st-level caster 10 gp to cast restore corpse once, then 200 gp to cast purify food and drink 40 times in a row.

For that kind of money, you could have purchased more than 400 steak dinners (a good meal is 5 sp). For that matter, you could have purchased 20 live cows.

You don't cast purify food and drink on the carcass - you do it on the meat you cut off. That cuts down on the number of castings required.

And anyone wanting to seriously do this would make a command-activated magic item of purify food and drink. Only costs 900gp, or 450gp to make. It may be cheaper to hire someone if you are only doing 2 cows, but ultimately it is cheaper to just make an item to do it.


I was thinking more along the lines of making a magic item of purify food and drink at will. That means you need at least a 3rd level caster though.


Jeraa wrote:
Michael Gentry wrote:

As a desperate attempt to fend off starvation, maybe, but I just can't see it as a viable way to mass-produce food for a population. The economics (wonky as they are in this game) just don't work.

A cow is roughly 40 cubic feet of meat. Purify food and drink affects one cubic foot per caster level, so your village cleric will have to cast it multiple times to make sure the carcass is safe to eat. In the cheapest possible scenario, you're paying a 1st-level caster 10 gp to cast restore corpse once, then 200 gp to cast purify food and drink 40 times in a row.

For that kind of money, you could have purchased more than 400 steak dinners (a good meal is 5 sp). For that matter, you could have purchased 20 live cows.

You don't cast purify food and drink on the carcass - you do it on the meat you cut off. That cuts down on the number of castings required.

And anyone wanting to seriously do this would make a command-activated magic item of purify food and drink. Only costs 900gp, or 450gp to make. It may be cheaper to hire someone if you are only doing 2 cows, but ultimately it is cheaper to just make an item to do it.

You still have to purify every cubic foot you cut off and eat. Spreading it out over time doesn't make it cost less per unit. Even just doing enough to cut off one steak costs 15 gp, minimum. Congrats, that steak is more expensive than a whole, live cow.

And for the price of making that wand, you could have purchased 45 head of cattle. Like, you could set yourself up as a cattle baron. I'm just saying, you are putting a lot of resources into a task that ordinary farmers pretty much have locked down at 1/10th the cost, all for the privilege of eating meat that was literally rotting just a few minutes before.


Quote:
And for the price of making that wand, you could have purchased 45 head of cattle. Like, you could set yourself up as a cattle baron. I'm just saying, you are putting a lot of resources into a task that ordinary farmers pretty much have locked down at 1/10th the cost, all for the privilege of eating meat that was literally rotting just a few minutes before.

You are forgetting about feed cost, housing space, and the people to care for those 45 animals. Plus those animals will eventually die, and raising new ones takes time. While the initial cost is higher, it is cheaper and easier in the long run to have 1 dead cow that you magically regrow and purify its meat. Because the unlimited use item only has a single, one time cost compared to having to pay the caster each and every time you need him.

You are only looking at the situation from a single time. As in, you have to feed the people, so you kill 45 cows. Some time later, you need to kill 45 more cows, and so on. With the magic item, you can just keep using 1 single cow an infinite number of times. For the price of 45 cows, you can effectively have infinite cows. (Well, you still need to pay for the restore corpse spell. An item of that is more expensive.)


I'm not talking about a single time, actually: I'm specifically addressing the OP's scenario of feeding an entire population (of 300-500 people) forever off of a single carcass.

Disregarding the fact that a single 1st-level cleric would not be able to prepare enough restore corpse spells to give all of those people 3 square meals for even a single day, there is just no way for this to be more cost-effective than a farmer breeding cattle and selling the meat at market prices.

And yes, by RAW, 450 gp is more than enough gold to build a barn (also a one-time cost, by the way), hire a team of unskilled labor, and purchase enough cows and feed to start a business. You slaughter some, you breed the rest (you seem to be ignoring the fact that cows reproduce), and you turn a profit on the meat and leather you sell so you can cover your ongoing costs.

Look, I'm not suggesting that your PCs should take up cattle ranching. But the question implied by the OP is, "Why don't we just use magic to grow magic meat and feed everyone with it?" And the answer is, "Because you don't use skilled labor when unskilled labor will do the same job for cheaper."


Actually, the really funny thing is, the whole argument about cows is moot, because herd animals are Large creatures, and restore corpse only works on Medium or smaller creatures.

You could do it with a pig, I guess, but that makes even less economic sense. You still have to cast purify food and drink the same number of times, because the amount of food that the population needs to consume stays the same. But you have to cast restore corpse many, many more times per day, because the pig has less meat on its carcass. Your daily spellcasting costs have just gone up by a factor of 10.

Meanwhile, the price of a fresh, living pig is just 3 gp per head. For every 10 gp you spend on a restore corpse spell, you could have purchased 3 pigs (1 boar, 1 sow to slaughter, and 1 sow to breed), with change left over for feed.


Michael Gentry wrote:
You slaughter some, you breed the rest (you seem to be ignoring the fact that cows reproduce), and you turn a profit on the meat and leather you sell so you can cover your ongoing costs.

I'm not ignoring the fact cows (or other animals) reproduce. I even mentioned it.

Jeraa wrote:
You are forgetting about feed cost, housing space, and the people to care for those 45 animals. Plus those animals will eventually die, and raising new ones takes time. While the initial cost is higher, it is cheaper and easier in the long run to have 1 dead cow that you magically regrow and purify its meat. Because the unlimited use item only has a single, one time cost compared to having to pay the caster each and every time you need him.

You don't instantly pop out an animal. It takes time. Time where that animal isn't producing food, but consuming it itself. So you need more space, people, and time to produce the food for your food.

Using the spell means you only need 1 animal, and you get more food as often as you can cast the spell.

You keep saying that you can just buy multiple animals for the same cost. Yes, you can. But where do those animals come from? There aren't an infinite number of them just hanging out waiting to be bought. With the spells, you need 1 animal. Period. An animal that doesn't need food, people to take care of it, or even space bigger than a closet.

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Your daily spellcasting costs have just gone up by a factor of 10

Spell cost remains the same, regardless of how many times you use it. Because you make an unlimited-use magic item.

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Look, I'm not suggesting that your PCs should take up cattle ranching. But the question implied by the OP is, "Why don't we just use magic to grow magic meat and feed everyone with it?" And the answer is, "Because you don't use skilled labor when unskilled labor will do the same job for cheaper."

Every farmer you no longer need because of this is now available to work elsewhere. By using magic to produce your food, you now have more labor for other tasks, increasing productivity.

And the only skilled labor involved is the single caster (or non-caster if he has Master Craftsman) to make the initial items. And again, it is only cheaper in the short term to use manual labor. Long term, the magic answer is cheaper. And arguably more profitible, as all those ex-farmers are now able to pursue other, more profitable tasks than growing food.


Sorry if I misunderstood; you also said:

Quote:
You are only looking at the situation from a single time. As in, you have to feed the people, so you kill 45 cows.

..which seemed to imply that you thought farmers buy a bunch of cows, slaughter them all at once, and have a big steak party. But that's not how cattle ranching works -- you slaughter some, you breed the rest. Sure, growing a calf takes time, but you're never starting from zero. You always have groups cattle at different stages of growth, and you hold back studs over multiple generations.

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But where do those animals come from?

Um, from all the herds of cattle that many, many people are breeding all over the place in a rural economy, all the time? You do realize that the normal, non-magical way is how it works in the real world, right? Large populations of humans have been using self-renewing herds of cattle to feed themselves throughout history. Do you wonder where all those cows come from, too?

Yeah, you could drop 2,700 gp on a couple of command-word items that cast the necessary spells at will. But if you have the cash to make an initial investment like that, you're not a farmer. You're an adventurer, and you have better things to do than sit around in a village casting purify food and drink over a hundred times per day so that the villagers don't have to work. And even if you didn't, there are more villages than adventurers in this world. Which is why the farmers of Golarion aren't scrimping and saving to buy a ring of the rejuvenating pig carcass; they're just raising cattle the normal way, which can be mastered by any 1st level commoner and requires a far smaller initial outlay of cash.


Other things your corpse-in-a-closet cannot provide:

- leather
- milk and cheese (because people are going to want to eat something besides not-quite-maggoty pork chops 3x/day)
- manure, to fertilize crops
- labor, for pulling wagons, plows, and mill wheels
- tallow for candles, soap, and grease
- glue from horns and hooves
- bone and sinew for fashioning various tools and implements


Don’t forget about malnutrition. A steady diet of just meat is not a balanced diet and will lead to a lot of health problems. You still need fruits and vegetables.

The description of restore corpse says the flesh is somewhat rotted and not fit for eating. Notice it does not say it is rotten just somewhat rotten. But it does specifically state that it is not fit for eating. This could mean that while the flesh is restored enough to create a zombie it does not restore the nutritional value to the flesh. If that is the case then purify food and water will not do anything.

But the 2nd level Ranger spell all food would work. It would cost significantly more but would not have the problems of malnutrition.

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