Hey folks,
In page 507-508 of the Pathfinder Core Rule Book we find the Crystal Ball which is a CL10 item that permits a user to employ the scrying spell at will. It has the following requirements:
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, scrying; Cost 21,000 gp
Now as far as I can tell, these two requirements and the cost are exactly the same as the Crystal Ball from the 3.5 DMG.
On page 81-82 of the 3.5 Stronghold Builders Guide, however, we find the Pool of Scrying, an item (only CL5 this time) that is physically larger but otherwise appears to perform the exact same function (scrying at will), and has the exact same requirements:
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, scrying; Market Price: 12,000 gp.
The stats for the scrying spell itself, caster level by class, casting time, duration, effect, etc seem to be identical between 3.5 and PF, so why the difference in CL and cost for the two otherwise apparently identical items?
I'd like to include the Pool in my PF scenario, but before I do so, I'd like to figure out if this was just a misprint or miscalculation, or if there is some other detail I am overlooking that explains the discrepancy. Thanks in advance for your help.
In page 507-508 of the Pathfinder Core Rule Book we find the Crystal Ball...
On page 81-82 of the 3.5 Stronghold Builders Guide, however, we find the Pool of Scrying...
You are using books from different games with different systems.
Since you are running a Pathfinder scenario, I would go with the the Pathfinder material. Just up the price to match the Pathfinder rules.
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Spell Resistance yes
It is affected by SR, so having a higher caster level helps.
Then:
"Cost" is the crafting cost, price of a crystal ball is 42.000
SL 4 (wizard version, based on the DC of 16) x CL 10 x 1.8000 (command word) = 72.000, no slot 144.000
It seem heavily under priced, probably it is so low as it has this row in the description: "A crystal ball can be used multiple times per day, but the DC to resist its power decreases by 1 for each additional use."
But mostly it is a custom price based on usefulness and how common is the item in novels.
The Pool of Scrying is based on the bard version of the spell, so SL 3, probably a starting DC of 14.
That would give us a stating price of SL 3 x CL5 x 1.800= 27.000. As it is a static object I think we can waive the "no slot" price increase.
With that mat in mind, the Pool actually is closer to the actual price of the item than the ball.
As the DC of both version are fairly low when used on PC or important NPC (at least at the level at which you can afford that expense) those items are more "plot items" than actual adventuring items: I think you can place whatever version you like in your adventure.
For that use the Pool actually is a better item, I think.
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In page 507-508 of the Pathfinder Core Rule Book we find the Crystal Ball...On page 81-82 of the 3.5 Stronghold Builders Guide, however, we find the Pool of Scrying...You are using books from different games with different systems.
Since you are running a Pathfinder scenario, I would go with the the Pathfinder material. Just up the price to match the Pathfinder rules.
The CL alone greatly reduce the effect of th Pool, so a reduction in price is reasonable.
The Pool can't be moved, so it should cost less than the Crystal all that can be moved.
Diego Rossi Pretty reasonable to houserule in, as a GM I would probably allow that or something similar. But for strait Pathfinder RAW it's a no.
I'm aware that the Pool of Scrying isn't an existing item according to the Pathfinder RAW, that goes without saying. If it was I'd already have the stats for it and I wouldn't be here asking the question.
Even if you only consider the 3.5 versions of both items, though, the question still remains. You have two objects that grant scrying at will, both require the craft wondrous item feat and the scrying spell, but the Crystal Ball is considered CL10 and has a market price of 42,000 gp, whereas the Pool is only CL5 with a quarter of the market price at 12,000 gp. Why?
Diego Rossi's explanation of one item being based on the Bardic version of the spell and the other on the Wizard version of the spell makes sense as far as the math goes to calculate what the CL and market price of each item SHOULD be based on the DC's and such. I mean, I get that CL drives price, so I can see that a CL10 object would cost more than a CL5.
I guess what I'm trying to figure out here is if both objects perform the same function, and both objects have the exact same requirements, is there any RAW reason why the CL would be different in the first place? Why would one be based on the Bardic version of the spell and the other on the Wizard version of the spell? Other than those created in game, aren't all magical items supposed to be created by default according to the lowest level class that can cast the spell?
I guess what I'm trying to figure out here is if both objects perform the same function, and both objects have the exact same requirements, is there any RAW reason why the CL would be different in the first place?
Nope. Two different creators in different systems wrote up different items. Unless you can find the creators of the items I don't think there's a "logic behind creating this" section anywhere.
Other than those created in game, aren't all magical items supposed to be created by default according to the lowest level class that can cast the spell?
In an ideal and frugal world, yes. But that's not always the case.
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Regardless, I would recommend going through the item creation rules and just building it yourself. Perhaps houserule in a cost reduction based on the fact that the pool (supposedly) can't move (I might be inclined to go 75%-80%). I think that's the best route for you to go.
Nope. Two different creators in different systems wrote up different items.
But that's just it, they're NOT in two different systems. Both the Crystal Ball and the Pool originated in the 3.5 system. The fact that one was brought to Pathfinder while the other wasn't is most likely a simple matter of the Crystal Ball coming out of the core DMG whereas the Pool came from a sourcebook.
That said, I'm sure you're probably right. I'm looking for a logical internal consistency where there is probably none to be had, within a game system that is often KNOWN for it's lack of logical internal consistency. LOL
I'll most likely do as you said, and create a new version of the Pool myself with the Pathfinder RAW with a reduction for a stationary object.
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The Stronghold Builders Guide is a 3rd ed. book, not 3.5.
The main differences are:
- lower chaster level, so a lower chance to get through SR
- lower spell level, so a better chance to resist the effect (actually it was not influent in 3.0 as the ability to Scry someone was based on the Scry skill, not on the level of the spell)
- static location of the pool against a portable item that don't use item slots.
Reducing the item cost to less than 1/3 for those reasons seem a large discount, but reducing it to less than half is reasonable.
Maybe the pool required to have the scry skill while in 3rd ed that wasn't requested for the ball? That would be worth a 30% discount, and being a immobile item a 50% discount. The final price of the pool, if we apply those in sequence, would be 35% of the ball.
35% of 42.000 is 14.700. close enough to the item price.
Makes sense to me. Thanks for your help.