[url]http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sxcj?Cultural-Appropriation-in-roleplaying-gam es[/url]
Shame to let a discussion die because someone didn't know the Paizo Owns The Board Content policy.
I still would like my question answered:
What if I don't want to spend more than 5 minutes on Wikipedia?
It's not literally about that, the real meaning of the question is:
"There's a lot of work involved in making a setting even before doing research for cultures other than your own. Sometimes people don't have the time or the energy to do all that research. What then?"
This isn't a "You should put up with my laziness" argument. It is, however, an argument that laziness, or possibly lack of ability, will happen, and that it's better to have a policy in place so that people know what they are and are not allowed to do when that happens.
Is this a setting for a home game with close friends, or something you plan on making money on or disseminating widely? and is this setting solely for games, or something that might evolve into a novel or other form of media. Because honestly the answer will vary based on the purpose.
If you are just running a game for a few friends you know well, than no it shouldn't matter if you research or not, because presumably you know what works with them and they will be forgiving of you. If you are running a game for strangers at a convention or game store, you should probably put the effort in to prep a good game that strangers can enjoy. That might require putting some research time in if you are going outside your area of familiarity, including making sure you are not offending your players (It's not hard to find stories online about disasters involving these areas).
I think if you are going to publish something and expect people to pay for the product, than yes...you should probably do the research if you are using elements you are not familiar. This isn't just culture, but really any subject outside your expertise. Because odds are some of your readers will know more about something than you, and they will react negatively if you screw up. And if you screw up and it comes across as insensitive/offensive/racist...well...good luck with that.
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Seeing as Golarion is a fantasy realm completely different from Earth, and its cultures have only passing similarity to Earth cultures, I don't honestly see the issue.
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The only time I think extensive research is necessary is if you are making an actual reenactment simulation of one of our existing cultures. I am pretty forgiving when somebody is making up a fantasy culture for an RPG. I might not be the best person to ask though, folks seem to get offended by all kinds of things I dont even notice. The only blatantly offensive RPG material I can think of is F.A.T.A.L.
So no research, no doing these things at all? Absolutely no convention games or publishing?If you are running a game for strangers at a convention or game store, you should probably put the effort in to prep a good game that strangers can enjoy. That might require putting some research time in if you are going outside your area of familiarity, including making sure you are not offending your players (It's not hard to find stories online about disasters involving these areas).
I think if you are going to publish something and expect people to pay for the product, than yes...you should probably do the research if you are using elements you are not familiar. This isn't just culture, but really any subject outside your area of familiarity, including making sure you are not offending your players (It's not hard to find stories online about disasters involving these areas).
note the use of "might require". If you are using a fairly standard setting with a dwarf kingdom here, an elf empire there, and everything vaguely European medieval...you might not need to do a whole lot of research or any if you have read enough Fantasy.
IF you are instead basing your fantasy setting on pre-contact North America, and all you know about Native Americans is from some westerns...than yeah you should probably do some research. Basically...are you just recycling tropes and stereotypes?
To use a super simple analogy, say you want to make a cake for a friend, but you have never in your life baked a cake. You vaguely know that cakes have flour and sugar and a few other ingredients. You could just be super lazy, mix everything up, and throw it in the oven. OR you could look up directions online, go and buy missing/needed ingredients, and follow the directions. One of those routes has a much higher likelihood of producing a delicious desert than the other.
I'm not asking because it's like some kind of deal-breaker for me, I ask because I get very screwy when I don't have an exact rule to follow.
There are no exact rules for this sort of thing, just suggestions and advice.
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There are no exact rules for this sort of thing, just suggestions and advice.Then why does everyone act like it's supposed to be easy?
Who says it's supposed to be easy? What it's supposed to be, as I understand it, is a labor of love. Why create a campaign world to play in? Because it's supposed to be fun for you and your players.
But part of it being fun for the players is making sure it doesn't piss them off (at least not too much). And the broader the group you're playing with (selling it to the public being broader than playing it for random players at a convention being, in turn, broader than playing with your regular group of 4-6 friends), the more care you want to make sure you're not offending them with inaccurate or offensive stereotyping.
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I think the biggest piece here, post research, is being able to acknowledge (sometimes painfully) when despite your best efforts you've still screwed something up. It's a big part of this process. There are a lot of details, and as was originally demonstrated in an example in the prior thread, despite all your best efforts you may still miss something.
I'm never going to go as far as to say we need to make all of our fantasy/sci-fi without roots in known culture (even if that is a specific set of Anglo-European Cultures), because that's just not how art and culture work, unfortunately. Plus, it makes it very difficult to orient folks to a narrative or setting when it is entirely alien to anyone save the author who thought it up.
The careful dance is going to be making sure when your inspirations do draw from actual culture, you're doing your research, doing it justice, and (ideally) making it the sort of vague pastiche that usually works best.
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My feeling is that critiquers need to step up when they critique and ensure as much as possible the mistake doesn't happen again. Just saying "do research" is likely to just result in more bad stuff because you have no idea the capabilities of the person. Instead tell them what to read, what parts of it to retain, how to apply those parts to their work......hell, the easiest way is to do the work for them. That way you ensure it's to your standards.Or tell them not to bother trying. Sometimes it's the honest thing to do.
So, if I'm going to be critical of a piece of media, I need to then tell the writer, step by step how to fix it (or instead, do it for them)? I can totally get a critique of "hey, go read up on X and Y. Maybe find someone who is Z who will talk over your material for you". But a critic's job isn't to do the writer's for them; just go "Hey, this could be better in area A because B".
Let's take that a step further, though: The folks most critical of media that is guilty of appropriation, for example, are the people it is being appropriated from (and rightly so!). But by your standard, the burden is on them to then step in and do it all for the creator. That seems logical, except it's now asking folks to do the labor for the creator whom they probably never asked to make this content in the first place.
There's a lot written about this stance, but the most well known is this wonderfully satirical site.
"You should educate me" is a form of derailing the conversation and usually an evasion of responsibility by the guilty party. When you make a mistake, you don't turn to the person telling you this and put the burden on them to keep you from making it again or making up for it. You own it and do the work to do better.
...except it's now asking folks to do the labor for the creator whom they probably never asked to make this content in the first place.Then don't let people create content they're not asked to create.
You do realize that's impossible, right?
It sounds more possible than expecting people to know how to do something without any evidence they can.You do realize that's impossible, right?...except it's now asking folks to do the labor for the creator whom they probably never asked to make this content in the first place.Then don't let people create content they're not asked to create.
I'm trying really hard to not read these claims of "I can't" as "I'm too lazy to do better".
There's an old joke about every painter having 10,000 bad paintings inside them. Once he's painted all those, he can start doing the good ones.And yet the first 10,000 times people critique them as if they're supposed to start with the good ones.
Yes. Telling people what they're doing wrong, getting them to recognize their faults and errors is always the first step toward improvement.
The next step, learning how to fix those errors, is all on the creator. People can offer advice, suggestions, or direction, but until the creator learns what they're doing wrong and how to remedy it, they won't improve.
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I see a lot of questions, but I'm not sure you're reading the answers.
The next step, learning how to fix those errors, is all on the creator.How do you do that when people won't tell you how?
Because often it's not something people can tell you. Everyone learns differently. What works for me might not work for you. I can give you advice and suggestions, but until you figure out what makes it click for you, it's not worth much.
It's something you have to figure out for yourself.
If you honestly have no desire to improve on something you do, then do something you do want to get better at, practice makes better.
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It's something you have to figure out for yourself.Then why am I supposed to listen to people?!
Because other people can spot the mistakes you don't realize you made, due to oversight, lack of knowledge or understanding, or miscommunication. They can point these mistakes out to you, so you know where to look to start fixing the errors and rectifying the mistake and improving yourself.
We're often quite blind to our own flaws.
Let's try this a different way.
Let's say you're trying to present a basic math problem. 2+2. Yet due to a misunderstanding or lack of proper education on the subject or whateverhaveyou, you've come to the conclusion that 2+2=5.
When you present this information, of course, people respond "your premise is faulty, 2+2=4".
People can point out all day long all the ways that 2+2 does not equal 5 (breaking it down into 1+1+1+1, breaking down the actual mathematical value of 5 and comparing it to the value of 2, etc.), but until you yourself understand that and understand why it's not equivalent, you won't be able to understand why you're wrong, and thus won't be able to make a correction.
In this analogy, 2+2=5 is equivalent to the mistaken or misused cultural reference. People can point out the mistake you've made, as in pointing out how 2+2 should equal 4 not 5, but until you do the research and understand why it's wrong, you can't fix it and you can't improve.
And if you're unwilling - due to stubbornness or laziness - to make the effort to understand and improve, I personally would recommend getting out of mathematics, or the equivalent analogical representation.
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Criticism is a basic element of any creative endeavor, whether its a game setting, a scientific paper, a novel or a meal. You have to put in effort to improve on anything. That means a lot of times you will get things wrong. It also means a lot of work. I go through this personally every time I submit a paper; not only does the research I do go through at least one round of peer review with multiple reviewers, but it usually gets read by friends and collaborators to ensure it's sufficient quality before submission.
No one is saying that you have to do this and that to make a game setting. But if you want to sell it as a product to consumers, then you need to make sure its sufficient quality. That means a product with good grammar and layout, professional design, adherence to the ruleset you are making it for, and enough originality to attract interest. And yes it also means not accidentally offending customers.
This is why most authors have editors to look over there writing, and why a company like Paizo not only has multiple editors, developers, and designers.
I'm sorry always works, but It's not needed, you shouldn't feel bad, I have a whole campaign setting in my head, it's barely been written down, I had a map but my young daughter accidentally destroyed that. The point is don't feel bad about being unable to competently write it down, I wish I could write better, we all do. Honestly if you want to improve your craft, the best way is unmitigated honest review, I learned more about writing just by asking two people I know for honest opinions, it helped immensely.