I am relatively new to Pathfinder, and still playing my first ever character: a vanilla witch. I have no intentions of turning him towards the Dark Sister archetype, but I do find it very interesting.
I know that a lot of witch spells and hexes are either intentional poor choices (Nails), paltry versions of meaningful effects (Charm hex), or so situational that they seem intended to only be used by NPCs (Child-Scent). Still, some of these appeal to me through by their strong flavor.
What is the consensus, if any on the Dark Sister archetype? Is it similarly meant-for-NPCs-only, or is it something a PC could reasonably make work?
Dark Sister: Click Here
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FYI: The archetype name is actually Hag of Gyronna.
d20pfsrd.com strips all Golarion-specific content from their site, and can change the rules in the process.
It's usually not a good choice for PCs in a typical good or neutral aligned party.
FYI: The archetype name is actually Hag of Gyronna.
d20pfsrd.com strips all Golarion-specific content from their site, and can change the rules in the process.
It's usually not a good choice for PCs in a typical good or neutral aligned party.
I had figured it would be less than appropriate for a good-aligned party, but is it appropriate for a player character at all? Does a standard witch in a standard campaign have enough opportunities to capitalize on the benefits it offers?
The archetype's Sunder Hope ability seems incredibly situational.
No, that archetype screams NPC! Bad person doing stuff you need to send adventurers after her for! It's not designed to be useful as a PC, and it isn't.
No, that archetype screams NPC! Bad person doing stuff you need to send adventurers after her for! It's not designed to be useful as a PC, and it isn't.
The witch seems to have many more of these types of things than any other class, at least that I'm aware of. It's very disappointing to be guided towards certain very limited options because the others seem so interesting, but so incredibly niche.
Yeah. You can take the basic witch maybe 2-3 ways max, there's a handful of archetypes which change the witch in more or less useful ways, and a few more which don't really change it significantly, and then there are several NPC only types.
It's a poorer ratio than other classes get but I think most (maybe all) classes have archetypes represented in each category.
No, that archetype screams NPC! Bad person doing stuff you need to send adventurers after her for!
What's so evil about her beside summoning a (neutral evil) night hag?
If it's the flavor: That can be changed together with the GM.
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No, that archetype screams NPC! Bad person doing stuff you need to send adventurers after her for! It's not designed to be useful as a PC, and it isn't.
It's actually extremely powerful for a PC, it just takes time for that power to make itself truly available.
While the curdle thoughts ability is kinda weak by itself the ability to add a +2DC to any fear spell you cast is kinda potent at low levels.Sunder Hope is a great counterspell ability with the added bonus that it can counter things that no one else can and doesn't eat up your standard action like it does to everyone else. Remember it states beneficial spell or ability, so class abilities (lay on hand, hexes, bard song, aid another, etc). You can stop all manner of beneficial effects that no other person in the game can prevent.
Finally, at 12th level you get a Hag servant for 12 rounds a week. Do you know how powerful that is? This gives you access to a full power Hag's Coven and all these spells:
animate dead, baleful polymorph, blight , bestow curse, clairaudience/clairvoyance, charm monster, commune, control weather, dream, forcecage, mind blank, mirage arcana, reincarnate, speak with dead, veil, vision.
These can all be cast effectively for free as often as you want (barring your 12 round limit). Force Cage is a 7th level spell, Mind Blank is 8th and Vision is Legend Lore on steroids. Massive defensive, offensive, information gathering and ally gathering powers that don't require you to burn your own spell slots and resources.
It's a slow archetype but extremely powerful if you really put some effort into it.
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If you're going evil, take a look at the bouda witch. Melee touch attacks at range, ability to double up on your Evil Eye hex for a single target, and ability to change into a hyena. While the change into a hyena part is meh, you give up your familiar and two hexes for all the features, which isn't all that bad of a deal, considering how good Evil Eye is.
Bouda is almost brokenly good and is worth almost everything it gets. While it loses some of the action economy advantage having a familiar gives the ability to use your touch spells at 30' isn't too bad of a trade.
The real icing on the cake is Hyena Form, it's the best thing about this archetype. Natural spell, full ability to speak, 50' movement rate + scent, 10' reach, free trip attacks & +4 to strength and AC that lasts for 10 hours a day.You are now impossible to sneak up on, chase down or mundanely stop you from casting spells. AND if someone does try to melee with you you can now effectively AoO them and knock them to the ground and move further away from them then they can follow you and attack (and almost out of the range of most of their attack spells).
This is a POTENT archetype with two annoying trade offs (no familiar and delayed access to major hexes).
If you want a witch, I really like the Ley Line witch in OA. You trade your familiar for the ability to raise your CL on spells, and you become spontaneous, which really helps the usability of the witch spell list.
I hadn't seen that archetype until now. It's pretty interesting. I want to make sure I'm understanding it correctly:
The archetype description states that the patron connection is not performed through a familiar, but the Ley Line Powered class feature explicitly only alters a witch's spellcasting, which is distinct from its Familiar class feature. Do Ley Line Guardians then still get a familiar that simply plays no role in their spellcasting (but would still provide benefits like the Dodo's initiative increase)? Or is it intended to scrap the familiar feature altogether?
If you're going evil, take a look at the bouda witch. Melee touch attacks at range, ability to double up on your Evil Eye hex for a single target, and ability to change into a hyena. While the change into a hyena part is meh, you give up your familiar and two hexes for all the features, which isn't all that bad of a deal, considering how good Evil Eye is.Bouda is almost brokenly good and is worth almost everything it gets. While it loses some of the action economy advantage having a familiar gives the ability to use your touch spells at 30' isn't too bad of a trade.
The real icing on the cake is Hyena Form, it's the best thing about this archetype. Natural spell, full ability to speak, 50' movement rate + scent, 10' reach, free trip attacks & +4 to strength and AC that lasts for 10 hours a day.
You are now impossible to sneak up on, chase down or mundanely stop you from casting spells. AND if someone does try to melee with you you can now effectively AoO them and knock them to the ground and move further away from them then they can follow you and attack (and almost out of the range of most of their attack spells).This is a POTENT archetype with two annoying trade offs (no familiar and delayed access to major hexes).
The alignment requirement was what initially turned me off the archetype (I was making a CN character) and so I haven't paid attention to it again until now.
I understand that extending touch range to 30' feet is metamagic-feat level power, but given that the bouda can only do it 1/4th her witch level, is it truly that good?
The hyena thing is crazy good. Maybe I'll make a different character a bouda eventually.
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If you're going evil, take a look at the bouda witch. Melee touch attacks at range, ability to double up on your Evil Eye hex for a single target, and ability to change into a hyena. While the change into a hyena part is meh, you give up your familiar and two hexes for all the features, which isn't all that bad of a deal, considering how good Evil Eye is.Bouda is almost brokenly good and is worth almost everything it gets. While it loses some of the action economy advantage having a familiar gives the ability to use your touch spells at 30' isn't too bad of a trade.
The real icing on the cake is Hyena Form, it's the best thing about this archetype. Natural spell, full ability to speak, 50' movement rate + scent, 10' reach, free trip attacks & +4 to strength and AC that lasts for 10 hours a day.
You are now impossible to sneak up on, chase down or mundanely stop you from casting spells. AND if someone does try to melee with you you can now effectively AoO them and knock them to the ground and move further away from them then they can follow you and attack (and almost out of the range of most of their attack spells).This is a POTENT archetype with two annoying trade offs (no familiar and delayed access to major hexes).
The alignment requirement was what initially turned me off the archetype (I was making a CN character) and so I haven't paid attention to it again until now.
I understand that extending touch range to 30' feet is metamagic-feat level power, but given that the bouda can only do it 1/4th her witch level, is it truly that good?
The hyena thing is crazy good. Maybe I'll make a different character a bouda eventually.
It's not world-shaking good but it is a significant boost that, like all the other bouda powers, becomes that much better at higher levels. Usually a touch level spell only needs to be used 1x per average adventuring day at low levels so this tends to fulfill 90% of the times you'll ever need to use a touch spell at range. It's a nice mid-level ability and it looks to be just at the right level for average play.