Help with order of actions


Rules Questions


I'm hoping this is a simple question since I'm going to be running in a few hours. Here's the scenario:

PC party arrives at a barred door and starts busting it down. The 2 NPCs on the other side of the door ready actions to attack as soon as the doors are forced open. Party suspects, but is uncertain that there are NPCs on the other side of the door. How does this play out?

1. Is there a surprise round?
2. When is initiative rolled?

Reading the rules for readied actions seems to imply that initiative has already been rolled. But if the PCs are unaware of the NPCs setting the ambush, how does that interact with the NPCs' readied actions?


"suspects but is not sure" is not the same as "is aware of".

Here's the rule:

Pathfinder SRD, Combat, Surprise Round wrote:
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin.

Looks to me like some (NPCs on other side of the door) but not all (not the PCs) were are of their opponents, so a surprise round happens.

Roll initiative for everyone before you even determine surprise (notice that Initiative is listed before Surprise in the rulebook). Surprised combatants don't get to act during the surprise round.

Me, I reverse the order and don't let surprised combatants even roll initiative until the first round starts, but that's not RAW.


Xexyz wrote:
Reading the rules for readied actions seems to imply that initiative has already been rolled. But if the PCs are unaware of the NPCs setting the ambush, how does that interact with the NPCs' readied actions?

This one is a little fuzzy. There has been a rather long-running debate about whether you can ready an action before the combat. Personally, I think yes, but others disagree. I don't think there's a definitive answer anywhere.

However, I submit that if you agree that you cannot ready any actions until combat starts, then the moment the PCs begin "busting down the door" is the moment the NPCs get their surprise round (say to drink potions and buff themselves) and then they can ready for the door-busting.


DM_Blake wrote:
However, I submit that if you agree that you cannot ready any actions until combat starts, then the moment the PCs begin "busting down the door" is the moment the NPCs get their surprise round (say to drink potions and buff themselves) and then they can ready for the door-busting.

This is the best way to handle pre-combat shenanigans.

If it's a given that the door is going to give shortly, it's unreasonable not to let PCs/NPCs behind it prepare for it. If it was the other way around, players would expect to be able to cast spells in preparation and use other abilities.

As for surprise, are the NPCs aware the PCs are going to bust the door? If no, the first attempt at busting it down can be the action the PCs take in the surprise round. If they bust it down fast and cleanly and gain the initiative on the first non-surprise round, they could even catch the NPCs before they get to ready their action.

I'd let people roll initiative as soon as the break-in attempt becomes apparent. Picking a lock may go unnoticed, but breaking the door down violently will have both parties up in arms. From that point on, moving into combat rounds will lead to the fairest resolution with regard to the action economy.

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