When does Expert Captor work?

[Byrhtnoth]

Hey guys,

I'm making a Grappling build, and taking a look at the Order of the Penitent ability Expert Captor for Cavaliers:

Quote:

At 2nd level, as long as he has rope, the cavalier can tie up a grappled opponent, even if the opponent is not pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, and he does not take the usual –10 penalty on his combat maneuver check to do so. When determining the DC to escape bonds secured by the cavalier, the cavalier's Combat Maneuver Bonus increases by 1/2 his cavalier level.

It makes sense that this would work for an opponent that you have grappled. What about in cases where the opponent has the grappled condition, but you are not the controlling grappler, such as when the enemy is grappled by another PC, or when the enemy is the controlling grappler? Can you still tie up the opponent?

[DM_Blake]

Your first question is easy: it just says "tie up a grappled opponent" without specifying WHO must do the grappling, so sure, you can tie up any grappled opponent even if your allies are the grapplers instead of you.

Your second question is harder. By RAW, when something grapples you, it gets the grappled condition. It is in control and can end the grapple as a free action and you cannot. It must maintain the grapple while you must try to escape or deal with being grappled. So there are differences between who is doing the grappling and who is being grappled, but both of them have the grappled condition. So technically if an opponent grapples you, he is now a "grappled opponent" so you could tie him up.

RAW might allow this, but I don't think this is the intent of the ability.

So can we justify disallowing it and still be RAW? I think so:

In order to use "Tie Up" as a grapple option, you must make a CMB check to maintain your grapple. This is based on the following:

SRD, Combat, Grapple wrote:

Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Tie Up is listed as one of those following actions.

Based on that, if someone grapples your Cavalier, HE is the one making CMB checks to maintain the grapple and YOU are the one making CMD checks to escape it, so he is the only one eligible to "perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)."

Long story short, it looks like you cannot tie up an opponent who is grappling you.