R=Red Team
B=Blue Team
4 subjects on each team
R1 sees B1 and B3
R2 sees B1, B3, and B4
R3 sees B2
R4 sees no one
B1 sees R1
B2 sees Everyone
B3 sees no one
B4 sees R3 and R4
Lol, you get the gist. Are there rules to navigate this type of madness?
What I've decided to do is allow anyone who noticed any enemy act in the surprise round, but they are flat footed vs targets they didn't notice.
You're flat-footed until you take your first action in combat anyway (unless you aren't because feat/class features/whatever)
You either know you are in combat, or you don't. That is, you are either surprised or you are not surprised. If you are not you get to act. You are flat footed against anyone taking an action before you get to act. You are not flat footed to anyone after that.
However, you may be able to act in the surprise round, but not be aware of all combatants - such as in your example. In this case you can't take actions against those combatants you are unaware of. This doesn't necessarily mean you are flat footed against them when they get their turn - though if they are attacking from stealth or invisibility then you will lose your dex bonus to AC regardless.
This doesn't necessarily mean you are flat footed against them when they get their turn - though if they are attacking from stealth or invisibility then you will lose your dex bonus to AC regardless.
It isn't much of a stretch to say that someone attacking an unaware target, even if they aren't actively stealthing, even if the target knows they are in combat, would get all associated benefits of attacking an unaware target. Easy to justify with a ranged weapon, probably impossible with a melee weapon.
This doesn't necessarily mean you are flat footed against them when they get their turn - though if they are attacking from stealth or invisibility then you will lose your dex bonus to AC regardless.It isn't much of a stretch to say that someone attacking an unaware target, even if they aren't actively stealthing, even if the target knows they are in combat, would get all associated benefits of attacking an unaware target. Easy to justify with a ranged weapon, probably impossible with a melee weapon.
Sure. And I have no problem with that. It is important to understand what the actual RAW is first though, then you can make adjustments like this on the fly when it makes sense to do so (in your home games).
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B3 and R4 are surprised.
Everyone rolls initiative. All but those two get to act in the surprise round.
Easy peasy. Gimme something hard...
Hint: it's not who you see, not how many you see, and especially not who sees you - the only thing that matters is IF you see an enemy. If yes, you can act in the surprise round, if no, you can't.
(yes, there are other ways to observe an enemy than sight, those apply too).
@DM Blake
I understand that. The question was more, are the ones who noticed enemies still denied their dex to ac vs combatants they didn't notice, even if they've already acted.
Say B1 goes before R2 in initiative. B1 acts and is no longer flatfooted. But he didn't see R2. Can R2 still sneak attack him then? I've been allowing it
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@DM Blake
I understand that. The question was more, are the ones who noticed enemies still denied their dex to ac vs combatants they didn't notice, even if they've already acted.
Yes, they are still denied their Dex versus those enemies they did not notice, the same as anyone else who is unaware of an enemy.