I have read the initial playtest, and I just feel this ability is a bit broken. I am playing an evil Brawler/Strangler Archetype in a campaign currently, and this is just the ability I would want for a 2 level dip. The problems I see are as follows:
1. No limit to how many times I can do this in a round, so I can essentially use this for all incoming attacks, which I assume include melee, ranged, traps that target AC, and spells that target AC.
2. No specifications for what happens when the grappled creature dies. Essentially, what is to stop one from using a corpse as a shield forever? I assume a corpse has a CMD of 0, so this will always succeed.
3. What is to stop someone from using a dummy wearing armor as a living shield, as they would also have 0 CMD?
What this leads me to think is you could dress a dummy or corpse in full plate (or some tied up chump if you are evil, just to fulfill the "living" part of the talent), carry it around with you, and never get hit by a melee attack ever again. At level 2. Seems a bit broken.
I have read the initial playtest, and I just feel this ability is a bit broken. I am playing an evil Brawler/Strangler Archetype in a campaign currently, and this is just the ability I would want for a 2 level dip. The problems I see are as follows:
1. No limit to how many times I can do this in a round, so I can essentially use this for all incoming attacks, which I assume include melee, ranged, traps that target AC, and spells that target AC.2. No specifications for what happens when the grappled creature dies. Essentially, what is to stop one from using a corpse as a shield forever? I assume a corpse has a CMD of 0, so this will always succeed.
3. What is to stop someone from using a dummy wearing armor as a living shield, as they would also have 0 CMD?
What this leads me to think is you could dress a dummy or corpse in full plate (or some tied up chump if you are evil, just to fulfill the "living" part of the talent), carry it around with you, and never get hit by a melee attack ever again. At level 2. Seems a bit broken.
1. It's an immediate action. You can only perform a single immediate action per round, which eats up your swift action from the following round.
2-3: The ability specifies you must be grappling a creature. Corpses and dummies are not creatures, they are objects as per the rules of the game.
He is right; unless you're getting some sort of ability that allows you to take multiple swift/immediate actions per turn, it means you're only using one per round at any given time.
However, it doesn't change the factor that the PC could just carry around a little bag of bookworms or some other puny creature that he could grapple with (and take the -20 penalty to grapple so they don't suffer the grapple penalties) and use the feat without any issue at all.
You could also simply have a creature dominated, automatically become your 'tango partner,' and the same issue crops up.
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Linking the relevant ability text would solve a lot of problems. I suggest if you're asking a question about it that you reference the subject matter, so as to get a more accurate answer to your concerns.
Cool thanks for the clarification, very helpful!
While it does state "creature", really, in any sense of logic or reason, I don't see why it can't be a dummy, corpse, or chair, if it can indeed also be a bag of worms, a rat, etc. I think this is an instance where adhering to the strict rules of creature vs. objects simply does not make sense.
e.g.: In real life, people practice grappling with dummies. If you adhere to these rules would this not be possible in the game since the dummy is an object? Can it not be grappled?
e.g.: An animated chair is a creature and thus can be grappled and used as a living shield, but not a normal chair?
I can see why this is a problem since you could grapple a shield and use that as a living shield, which is essentially what using a shield in a real life scenario is. I guess the real problem with this situation and it's believably is how the core rules relate to shields and blocking.
I guess a good move would be to animate a brick of adamantine and use that as a living shield? I like the worms idea too.
Here are the rules from the playtest:
Living Shield (Ex): Whenever the avenger vigilante is grappling a creature and is targeted by an attack, he can, as an immediate action, attempt a combat maneuver check against the target of his grapple (this combat maneuver check doesn’t count as a combat maneuver check to grapple). If he succeeds, the target of his grapple becomes the new target of the attack. If the check fails, the target escapes the grapple and the avenger is the target of the attack as normal. This ability must be used after the attack is declared against the avenger vigilante, but before the attack is made and the results revealed.
Cool thanks for the clarification, very helpful!
While it does state "creature", really, in any sense of logic or reason, I don't see why it can't be a dummy, corpse, or chair, if it can indeed also be a bag of worms, a rat, etc. I think this is an instance where adhering to the strict rules of creature vs. objects simply does not make sense.
e.g.: In real life, people practice grappling with dummies. If you adhere to these rules would this not be possible in the game since the dummy is an object? Can it not be grappled?
e.g.: An animated chair is a creature and thus can be grappled and used as a living shield, but not a normal chair?
I can see why this is a problem since you could grapple a shield and use that as a living shield, which is essentially what using a shield in a real life scenario is. I guess the real problem with this situation and it's believably is how the core rules relate to shields and blocking.
I guess a good move would be to animate a brick of adamantine and use that as a living shield? I like the worms idea too.
Here are the rules from the playtest:
Living Shield (Ex): Whenever the avenger vigilante is grappling a creature and is targeted by an attack, he can, as an immediate action, attempt a combat maneuver check against the target of his grapple (this combat maneuver check doesn’t count as a combat maneuver check to grapple). If he succeeds, the target of his grapple becomes the new target of the attack. If the check fails, the target escapes the grapple and the avenger is the target of the attack as normal. This ability must be used after the attack is declared against the avenger vigilante, but before the attack is made and the results revealed.
Most people practice hand-to-hand combat using actual people for combat art demonstration, or even typical sparring. It wouldn't make sense to use practice on a dummy, because a human being would give you more experience, since that is what you are going to be usually performing this hand-to-hand combat on, and it will actually attempt to fight you back.
Additionally, the rules are abstract on realism; although it can be a good method to determine RAI, remember that this is a playtest. A lot can change from here to there, and I suggest you make your RAI abundantly clear in the playtest forums. I don't personally care what happens either way, I'm just here to provide a by-the-book answer.
An animated chair is and isn't a creature. It is in that it's something that PCs fight, and it isn't, in that it uses rules separate from creatures to determine its statistics (i.e. practically all creatures don't have a Hardness score to use for damage reduction). I would ask your GM if an animated object is in fact a creature, though many would tell you that just because it can make attacks and such like a creature, it's still an object.
Also note that I called out grappling with creatures way below your CR (like a bookworm, or a generic rat) constantly as a means to make use of the ability as much as possible is grounds for what a lot of people would call "cheese" (that is, using the RAW against the RAI).
This does require that you make checks each round (which can be physically taxing), and that if you use the ability, you have to spend at least a Move Action to draw another rat/worm out, and a Standard Action to perform the Grapple to make use of it the following round. It also doesn't declare what happens to the affected creature if the attack overkills it (i.e. if the excess damage would still transfer over to the character), and that's something which might be important here.
The ability name also doesn't make sense, because an undead creature, like a zombie, skeleton, or vampire, would be eligible targets for the ability, but aren't living.
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Even as written this is hardly broken. If you focus on this ability then your action economy will be completely used up to possibly negate or reflect upon the bad guys one attack per round. You become a non-threat. This could be useful in emergencies, sure, but you have to already be grappling something as well...
Not worth it.
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While it does state "creature", really, in any sense of logic or reason, I don't see why it can't be a dummy, corpse, or chair, if it can indeed also be a bag of worms, a rat, etc. I think this is an instance where adhering to the strict rules of creature vs. objects simply does not make sense.
What you are describing is at best an improvised tower shield.