First off, I know there are a ton of threads on here and I've spent a lot of time going through them (although I'll admit I may have missed something).
I played a grappler in my 3e days (I'll always miss you, El Toro!) but I've been considering trying again in Pathfinder, but each time I start making the character, I end up stopping because of my confusion.
Here's the character so far (Epic stat string, 8th level gestalt, 3rd tier mythic)
[u]-- Basics --[/u]
Name:
Race: Half-elf
Alignment: NG
Deity:
Gender:
Size: Medium
Height:
Weight:
Age:
Eyes:
Hair:
Skin:
[u]-- Classes --[/u]
Fighter - Unarmed (8)
Monk - Tetori (8)
Champion (3)
[u]-- Stats --[/u]
Str: 18 [20]
Dex: 13
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 20 [22]
Cha: 10
[u]-- HPs --[/u]
Max: 63.5
Temp:
[u]-- Combat --[/u]
Initiative: +6
Base Attack Bonus: +8
Base CMB: +13
Base CMD: 32
SR:
DR: 4/-
Speed: 88
[u]-- Weapons --[/u]
Unarmed (+15/+10, 1d10+7, x2)
Grapple (+27 (+7), 2d8+9 (+8), )
--
[u]-- Armor --[/u]
Bracers of Armor +1 (+1 to AC, no max dex, no armor penalty, no spell fail)
--
[u]-- Shield --[/u]
Snapping Turtle Style (+1 to AC, no max dex, no armor penalty, no spell fail)
[u]-- Armor Class --[/u]
Normal: 23 (1 Armor, 1 Shield, +1 Dex, +0 Size, 1 Natural, 1 Deflection, +0 Dodge, 8 Misc, +0 Misc, +0 Temp)
Touch: 20
Flat: 22
[u]-- Saving Throws --[/u]
Fort: +7 (+6 Base, +1 Ability)
Reflex: +8 (+7 Base, +1 Ability)
Will: +13 (+7 Base, +6 Ability)
[u]-- Skills --[/u]
"(+20) Acrobatics (8 Ranks, 6 WIS, 3 misc2, +3 Trained)
(+0) Appraise (+0 Ranks, 0 INT)
(+0) Bluff (+0 Ranks, 0 CHA)
(+5) Climb (+0 Ranks, 5 STR)
(+0) Craft () (+0 Ranks, 0 INT)
(+0) Craft () (+0 Ranks, 0 INT)
(+0) Craft () (+0 Ranks, 0 INT)
(+0) Diplomacy (+0 Ranks, 0 CHA)
(+0) Disguise (+0 Ranks, 0 CHA)
(+1) Escape Artist (+0 Ranks, 1 DEX)
(+1) Fly (+0 Ranks, 1 DEX)
(+6) Heal (+0 Ranks, 6 WIS)
(+0) Intimidate (+0 Ranks, 0 CHA)
(+17) Perception (8 Ranks, 6 WIS, +3 Trained)
(+0) Perform () (+0 Ranks, 0 CHA)
(+0) Perform () (+0 Ranks, 0 CHA)
(+1) Ride (+0 Ranks, 1 DEX)
(+13) Sense Motive (4 Ranks, 6 WIS, +3 Trained)
(+8) Stealth (4 Ranks, 1 DEX, +3 Trained)
(+6) Survival (+0 Ranks, 6 WIS)
(+16) Swim (8 Ranks, 5 STR, +3 Trained)
"
[u]-- Feats --[/u]
"1) Skill Focus (Acrobatics)
1) Snapping Turtle Style
1) Kraken Style (B)
1) Improved Grapple (B)
1) Stunning Fist (B)
2) WF (grapple)
2) Stunning Pin (B)
3) Snapping Turtle Clutch
4) WS (grapple)
5) Kraken Throttle
6) Deadly Grappler
6) Greater Grapple (B)
7) Final Embrace
8) Combat Style Master
T1) Weapon Focus, M
T3) Improved Grapple, M
"
[u]-- Special Abilities --[/u]
"Traits: Wisdom in the Flesh (Acrobatics), Adopted (Aasimar - Enlightened Warrior)
Fighter (Unarmed)
Harsh Training +2
Tough Guy DR 4/-
Weapon Training +1
Clever Wrestler
Monk (Tetori)
Unarmed 1d10
AC Bonus +8
Graceful Grappler, Evasion, Maneuver
Training, Still Mind
Ki pool 10
Counter-Grapple
Break Free
Purity of Body
Mythic Abilities
Hard to Kill
Mythic Power (9)
Surge +1d6
Sudden Attack
Aerial Assault
Amazing Initiative
Impossible Speed
Recuperation
Extra Mythic Feat: Paragon
"
[u]-- Equipment --[/u]
"[belt] Belt Anaconda Coils +2(1)
[chest] Shirt of Natural Armor +1(1)
[headband] Headband of Wis +2(1)
[neck] Amulet of Mighty Fists (Guided) +0(1)
[ring] Ring of Protection +1(1)
[wrist] Bracers of Armor +1(1)
Total Weight: 70 lbs
"
[u]-- Notes --[/u]
"Notes
FCB: Fighter-Monk, +1 to movement
Kraken Style - Successful Grapple 2d8+17
Acrobatics to jump +43 +50 ft
"
I'm not looking for advice on how to optimize him, I just want to make sure I understand how it works.
Right now, I took WF & WS Grapple, thinking those would affect my grapple combat maneuver checks, but in reading different posts online that was likely in error and instead used for the initial touch attack. Since I have the grab ability, I'll likely use unarmed strike->grab instead.
So here's my confusion. I was all ready to accept that WF (unarmed) and Amulet of Mighty Fists (Guided) won't help (since it isn't an attack roll but a combat maneuver check) but this thread here says:
3. Likewise "Weapon Focus (grapple)" has legitimate reason for existing other than distinguishing itself from "Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)". Consider a monster that has the grab special ability with both its bite and its tentacles. Taking "Weapon Focus (bite)" would give it +1 to attack as well as the subsequent grab (as illustrated by SKR's blog post). But no benefit on tentacle attempts. Likewise "Weapon Focus (tentacle)" would give the monster +1 to attack and grab with its tentacle, but not to bites. Finally, "Weapon Focus (grapple)" would grant a +1 bonus to grab attempts with both bites and tentacles - but give no bonus to normal attacks with either.4. Our hypothetical tentacle-bite monster may wear a +1 amulet of mighty fists. Both its bites and its tentacles would gain a +1 to normal attacks; and both bite and tentacle grabs (grapples) gain the +1 from the amulet as well.
So it appears that if you have the grab special ability (8th level tetori as well as Anaconda Coils Belt + Final Embrace) WF (Unarmed) and the Amulet of Mighty Fists (Guided) _would_ help. Is that true? Meaning my initial grapple combat check would be 8 (bab) + 6 (wisdom - guided) + 1 (wf) + 1 (wf, mythic) + 2 (improved grapple) + 2 (greater grapple) + 2 (improved grapple, mythic + paragon) + 4 (grab) + 2 (belt) + 1 (weapon training) = +29?
If so, since the grab applies to the initial unarmed strike, would subsequent grapple checks be back to normal (based on strength, no weapon training or weapon focus unless I took weapon focus (grapple))? Meaning my grapple combat check would be 8 (bab) + 5 (strength) + 2 (improved grapple) + 2 (greater grapple) + 2 (improved grapple, mythic + paragon) + 4 (grab) + 2 (belt) + 5 (to maintain) + 2 (kraken style) = +32?
I assume in either case (to start or maintain the grapple) Weapon Specialization (Grapple) would apply as would Weapon Specialization (Unarmed) (to constrict damage as well as the grapple damage choice), but not stack. Is that correct?
Honestly, I'm fine either way, I just want to make sure I understand the rules. I want to play a wrestler again :D
I don't really understand the question.
AoMF applies to strikes, not grapples. Guided doesn't change that and neither does Grab, so I'm not sure how you would ever apply AoMF to grapple CMB rolls. The amulet will help you make the initial attack roll to hit, and your Grab ability will let you start a grapple from that, but the CMB check to initiate that grapple as well as future checks to maintain it, will not benefit from the AoMF.
Weapon Focus (grapple) adds +1 to your CMB for all grapple checks. Period. Weapon Specialization (grapple) adds +2 damage when you're grappling and you're able to inflict damage as part of the grapple - it will not add anything to any CMB check because you never add damage modifiers to attack rolls (and CMB is an attack roll).
So, make an initial attack benefiting from your AoMF but not from your WF (grapple) or WS (grapple). If that attack hits, make your free Grab benefiting from your WF (grapple) and WS (grapple) but not from your AoMF.
If you're thinking about switching your WS/WF from (grapple) to (unarmed strike) then those bonuses would apply to the initial attack roll and damage, but would not apply to grapple CMB rolls or grappling damage (in other words, those feats would work like your AoMF).
If that doesn't answer the question you're trying to ask, then maybe you could re-ask it without the 20 or so other variables that confuse the issue.
I don't really understand the question.
AoMF applies to strikes, not grapples. Guided doesn't change that and neither does Grab, so I'm not sure how you would ever apply AoMF to grapple CMB rolls. The amulet will help you make the initial attack roll to hit, and your Grab ability will let you start a grapple from that, but the CMB check to initiate that grapple as well as future checks to maintain it, will not benefit from the AoMF.
Weapon Focus (grapple) adds +1 to your CMB for all grapple checks. Period. Weapon Specialization (grapple) adds +2 damage when you're grappling and you're able to inflict damage as part of the grapple - it will not add anything to any CMB check because you never add damage modifiers to attack rolls (and CMB is an attack roll).
So, make an initial attack benefiting from your AoMF but not from your WF (grapple) or WS (grapple). If that attack hits, make your free Grab benefiting from your WF (grapple) and WS (grapple) but not from your AoMF.
If you're thinking about switching your WS/WF from (grapple) to (unarmed strike) then those bonuses would apply to the initial attack roll and damage, but would not apply to grapple CMB rolls or grappling damage (in other words, those feats would work like your AoMF).
If that doesn't answer the question you're trying to ask, then maybe you could re-ask it without the 20 or so other variables that confuse the issue.
My original thought was that the AoMF wouldn't affect it, but it was the post quoted above that confused me.
Well... going through the post linked above, I've found a LOT of people who concur that having the Grab ability would add the AoMF bonus.
But I'm fine with not adding my AoMF to the grapple check.
But one thing you said I'm not clear on.
If you're thinking about switching your WS/WF from (grapple) to (unarmed strike) then those bonuses would apply to the initial attack roll and damage, but would not apply to grapple CMB rolls or grappling damage (in other words, those feats would work like your AoMF).
Since when you do damage during a grapple you do your unarmed strike damage (same as when you use constrict) are you saying that Weapon Specialization (Unarmed) isn't counted? What about other bonuses (Weapon Training, AoMF, strength or wisdom <if a guided AoMF is counted>, etc.)? Is it just straight dice damage (1d10 for an 8th level monk, not counting Deadly Grappler)?
What if someone didn't have Grab but wanted to increase their chances of successfully connecting with the initial touch attack? Would that be WF (Touch)(is that even possible?) or WF (Grapple) or is it even possible to increase the accuracy of the initial touch?
Since when you do damage during a grapple you do your unarmed strike damage (same as when you use constrict) are you saying that Weapon Specialization (Unarmed) isn't counted?
Yes.
Because there is no "Weapon Specialization(Unarmed)". That's where you're making your mistake. There is "Weapon Specialization(Unarmed Strike)" and "Weapon Specialization(Grapple)".
Adding "Weapon Specialization(Unarmed Strike)" to your damage when you grapple is like adding "Weapon Specialization(Longsword)" to your damage when you're attacking with a spear. It's really two different things.
What if someone didn't have Grab but wanted to increase their chances of successfully connecting with the initial touch attack? Would that be WF (Touch)(is that even possible?) or WF (Grapple) or is it even possible to increase the accuracy of the initial touch?
That is exactly what Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike) would be used for. And your Amulet of Mighty Fists.
My apologies for saying "Unarmed" instead of "Unarmed Strike". In my defense, I'm habitually lazy and was in a rush and, to be honest, didn't realize that there was a difference.
Now I can see a Wizard taking Weapon Focus (Unarmed) instead of Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) for his touch spells. Thanks for the clarification with that :)
Since when you do damage during a grapple you do your unarmed strike damage (same as when you use constrict) are you saying that Weapon Specialization (Unarmed) isn't counted?Yes.
Because there is no "Weapon Specialization(Unarmed)". That's where you're making your mistake. There is "Weapon Specialization(Unarmed Strike)" and "Weapon Specialization(Grapple)".
Adding "Weapon Specialization(Unarmed Strike)" to your damage when you grapple is like adding "Weapon Specialization(Longsword)" to your damage when you're attacking with a spear. It's really two different things.
From the PRD for damaging in a grapple:
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
And from the PRD for Final Embrace:
Benefit: You gain the constrict and grab special attacks. Your constrict attack deals damage equal to your unarmed strike or primary natural weapon melee attack. Further, you can grab and constrict opponents up to your size.
In both cases, it says you do damage "equal to your unarmed strike". My unarmed strike includes wisdom damage (guided AoMF), weapon training, and (if I make the switch from WS (Grapple) to WS (Unarmed Strike)) and an additional +2. Is what they mean "equal to your unarmed strike WITHOUT bonuses"? In that case, would strength even be added?
I'm really not trying to belabor the point. I just want to know exactly how it works :)
Uuuh. I was under the assumption that anything you apply to an attack roll you could apply the a combat maneuver check? I.e. if you trip with a magical +1 weapon you would get a +1 to the trip (if its a trip weapon of course.). My question is would his unarmed strikes count as grapple weapons with the grab special quality.
Uuuh. I was under the assumption that anything you apply to an attack roll you could apply the a combat maneuver check?
Not entirely true.
Some modifiers apply to ALL your attacks (e.g. the bonus you get from spells like Bless). You can use these bonuses with ALL CMB checks. Other bonuses that are limited to your weapon, including Weapon Focus of course, only apply to attacks you make with that weapon.
the only Combat Maneuvers that are used with a weapon are Disarm, Sunder, and Trip. You can recognize those because they only use an Attack Action, which means you can make several in the same round if you have a high enough BAB, and you can use them as AoOs, too.
Grapple is a Standard Action, not an Attack Action, so you can only apply modifiers that apply to every kind of attack. Like Bless, but not like Weapon Focus.
I.e. if you trip with a magical +1 weapon you would get a +1 to the trip (if its a trip weapon of course.).
Half correct. You certainly can use your magical weapon enhancement bonus on Disarm, Sunder, and Trip.
The weapon does NOT require the Trip property for you to do this - all that property does is protect you from being tripped if you fail badly.
My question is would his unarmed strikes count as grapple weapons with the grab special quality.
I don't know of any reason why it would. He uses his Unarmed Strikes to make the initial attack - a normal melee attack (or a touch attack given his other unique abilities). After that is resolved as a hit and damage is done, he then makes a GRAB using CMB and the grapple rules where his Unarmed Strikes bonuses no longer apply.
There was a blog stating that attack modifiers on weapons can be applied to a small subset of combat maneuvers. (unarmed strikes are a type of weapon) Grappling was not amongst them.
That being said, the blog also stated that the GM can rule certain weapons appropriate for specific combat maneuvers. Personally, I feel an unarmed strike is an appropriate weapon for making grapple maneuvers with and thus would give you any associated attack bonus to your roll... but other GMs may feel and rule otherwise.
Yes, right. That I got.. at least I thought I did. But then I keep seeing people saying that the reasoning behind it is because it's when the weapon is used as part of the maneuver, and point specifically to sunder, disarm, and trip, and that the GM could make exceptions for other instances (such as a sap used in a dirty trick). Therefore, from other posts I see on here (Triune's one in this recent thread, for example) states that if the attack has grab (or in this case, the white haired witch's grapple free action, which is essentially grab without the +4 bonus) counts. That's where I keep getting confused.
Going by what I believe DM_Blake has mentioned, however, I'm going back to my original assumption that Unarmed Strike bonuses do not add to the grapple check. What I"m not sure yet is why DM_Blake has said that the Unarmed Strike bonuses do not add to the damage, since every place I see where they talk about dealing damage in a grapple says it's "equal to your unarmed strike damage". Is it JUST the damage DICE for your Unarmed Strike, or does it count (any of) your bonuses (strength, damage if you have mythic weapon finesse, wisdom if you have a guided AoMF, etc.)?
I haven't asked my GM yet, I thought it would be a simple answer and I'd be able to just make the character and not have to bother him (I tend to ask a lot of questions during character creation and I tend to make a LOT of characters, so I've been trying to rein myself in :D )...
As far as "equal to your unarmed strike damage", yeah, I can see that point. If your unarmed strike damage has bonuses that ONLY apply to unarmed strike (like Weapon Specialization or Amulet of Mighty Fists), it ultimately is still your unarmed strike damage and your grapple damage should be equal to that total amount.
I've always read it differently, that we're assuming it's equal to the unarmed damage you can inflict with the maneuver you're making (grapple). That's probably because I'm a Jiu Jitsu expert and almost everything I do in a grapple that would damage my opponent is VERY different from what I do when I strike my opponent - for example, if I apply a juji-gatame (MMA fans would call it an arm bar), I'm not striking my opponent's elbow, I'm bending and dislocating it. If I'm Mike Tyson and I can punch like a freight train, that punching power won't help me dislocate that elbow.
However, my Jiu Jitsu experience has no bearing on RAW, and after re-reading grapple, I'm changing my position on this point:
By RAW, your grapple damage IS equal to your "unarmed strike" damage. That would include all the damage modifiers that only apply to Unarmed Strike.
This is what the RAW says and it probably provides better game balance anyway.
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I'm going to argue the opposite, namely that anything that adds to the hit roll of the attack explicitly used to start a Combat Maneuver adds to it.
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus.
Does it add to your chance to land the attack? Yes? Then it adds to any Combat Maneuver that comes as a rider to and requires that attack. The Paizo blog on the issue was written four years ago when a host of the options allowing CM riders with weapons didn't exist, but it's still not a problem.
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.
For other maneuvers, either you’re not using a weapon at all, or the weapon is incidental to making the maneuver and its bonuses shouldn’t make you better at attempting the maneuver.
...just because you have a +5 dagger doesn’t mean it gives you a +5 bonus on grapple checks.
Now there are many more options for normally performing a CM with a weapon, as such these weapons would naturally allow the bonuses they have on the attack roll to be used on the CM roll. The second part clearly states that only if the weapon is incidental (such as the dagger in a grapple example) do you not count the bonuses from it, if the weapon is crucial to the attempt the bonuses must added.
I'm going to argue the opposite, namely that anything that adds to the hit roll of the attack explicitly used to start a Combat Maneuver adds to it.
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus.Does it add to your chance to land the attack? Yes? Then it adds to any Combat Maneuver that comes as a rider to and requires that attack. The Paizo blog on the issue was written four years ago when a host of the options allowing CM riders with weapons didn't exist, but it's still not a problem.
...Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.
For other maneuvers, either you’re not using a weapon at all, or the weapon is incidental to making the maneuver and its bonuses shouldn’t make you better at attempting the maneuver.
...just because you have a +5 dagger doesn’t mean it gives you a
So your conjecture, correct me if I'm wrong, is that all Unarmed Strike attack bonuses would add to the initial grab (grapple check) but not to further grapple checks to maintain the grapple, correct?
In the end, this all helps me out so if/when I bring this character to the table I can have everything ready and I don't need to start pouring over books in order to know how to play my dang character :D
I'm going to argue the opposite, namely that anything that adds to the hit roll of the attack explicitly used to start a Combat Maneuver adds to it.
I'm going to counter-argue that point, using the rule you quoted, but bold-facing it differently:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.
The way I see it, you use an unarmed strike, not a grapple, to make an attack. This unarmed strike uses whatever bonuses are applicable to your unarmed strikes.
Then you GRAB, giving you a free grapple Combat Maneuver. This requires a new roll, this time it's a CMB roll rather than an attack roll. Yes, I know CMB rolls ARE attack rolls, but obviously the mechanic is different so I'm referencing them as different - one is a subset of the other, but they're different mechanics.
That CMB is a different, separate attack from the unarmed strike that you initially performed.
The rule says "These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."
To perform the CMB, not to perform the unarmed strike.
That seems pretty cut and dry to me, but to make it clearer, you used a strike (fist, foot, head-butt, butt-butt, or whatever) to make a normal unarmed strike, then you used your open hands and/or arms to make a grapple CMB. Those are different "weapons", they're making different attacks, and they possibly (in the OP's case, definitely) have different modifying bonuses.
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Actually I would suggest it adds to all rolls to start or maintain a grapple. Combat Maneuvers are very specifically called out as an attack roll, therefore maintaining a grapple which specifically calls out that you are using the grapple maneuver to do so (and as such is an attack roll) would also benefit from anything which adds to that attack roll, thus any bonuses to whatever attack you are using to maintain the grapple would count.
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds.
Maintaining a grapple uses grapple checks to continue the hold, a grapple check is a combat maneuver, combat maneuvers are attacks, therefore any attack bonuses on the weapon used to maintain a grapple are applicable.
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I'm going to counter-argue that point, using the rule you quoted, but bold-facing it differently:...
That seems pretty cut and dry to me, but to make it clearer, you used a strike (fist, foot, head-butt, butt-butt, or whatever) to make a normal unarmed strike, then you used your open hands and/or arms to make a grapple CMB. Those are different "weapons", they're making different attacks, and they possibly (in the OP's case, definitely) have different modifying bonuses.
Fair points, however, my question would be, if the Unarmed Strike (which is the attack description, not 'Punch'/'Kick'/etc, as far as I know those aren't actual attacks you would find listed in a stat block) is NOT the "weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver"... what is?
Grab specifically calls out that "If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple" thus whatever you used to make the attack must surely be what you use to perform the combat maneuver as without that attack hitting the Grab attack doesn't trigger and you cannot use the ability.
I'm going to counter-argue that point, using the rule you quoted, but bold-facing it differently:...
That seems pretty cut and dry to me, but to make it clearer, you used a strike (fist, foot, head-butt, butt-butt, or whatever) to make a normal unarmed strike, then you used your open hands and/or arms to make a grapple CMB. Those are different "weapons", they're making different attacks, and they possibly (in the OP's case, definitely) have different modifying bonuses.
Fair points, however, my question would be, if the Unarmed Strike (which is the attack description, not 'Punch'/'Kick'/etc, as far as I know those aren't actual attacks you would find listed in a stat block) is NOT the "weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver"... what is?
Grab specifically calls out that "If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple" thus whatever you used to make the attack must surely be what you use to perform the combat maneuver as without that attack hitting the Grab attack doesn't trigger and you cannot use the ability.
Well, imagine if (hypothetically), you were fighting with a longsword and had the GRAB ability. Would you assume that you could slash someone with your longsword and then grapple them with your longsword? A longsword is not a very good grappling tool; I would assume you slashed them with your longsword and then used GRAB to grapple them with your arms (trying not to stab yourself in the face with your own sword when you put them in a choke-hold).
I would then assume that, if it was a +1 longsword and you had Weapon Focus (longsword), that those bonuses apply when you slash the guy a with your longsword but they would not apply when you GRAB/grapple them with your arms.
Now, I don't know how to get GRAB while fighting with a longsword, so this is probably just a hypothetical situation*, but I don't see it any differently than the OP's situation where he's striking with an Unarmed Strike and then grappling with his arms - two different kinds of attack and the bonuses that only apply to the first kind of attack don't apply to the second, different, kind of attack.
*Maybe put Sovereign Glue on the blade? Even then, that super sharp magical longsword and your Weapon Focus at slashing things with it may still not be applicable to using it as a sticky-stick to grapple someone.
I'm going to counter-argue that point, using the rule you quoted, but bold-facing it differently:...
That seems pretty cut and dry to me, but to make it clearer, you used a strike (fist, foot, head-butt, butt-butt, or whatever) to make a normal unarmed strike, then you used your open hands and/or arms to make a grapple CMB. Those are different "weapons", they're making different attacks, and they possibly (in the OP's case, definitely) have different modifying bonuses.
Fair points, however, my question would be, if the Unarmed Strike (which is the attack description, not 'Punch'/'Kick'/etc, as far as I know those aren't actual attacks you would find listed in a stat block) is NOT the "weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver"... what is?
Grab specifically calls out that "If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple" thus whatever you used to make the attack must surely be what you use to perform the combat maneuver as without that attack hitting the Grab attack doesn't trigger and you cannot use the ability.
Well, imagine if (hypothetically), you were fighting with a longsword and had the GRAB ability. Would you assume that you could slash someone with your longsword and then grapple them with your longsword? A longsword is not a very good grappling tool; I would assume you slashed them with your longsword and then used GRAB to grapple them with your arms (trying not to stab yourself in the face with your own sword when you put them in a choke-hold).
I would then assume that, if it was a +1 longsword and you had Weapon Focus (longsword), that those bonuses apply when you slash the guy a with your longsword but they would not apply when you GRAB/grapple them with your arms.
Now, I don't know how to get GRAB while fighting with a longsword, so this is probably just a hypothetical situation*, but I don't see it any differently than the OP's...
Maybe not a longsword, but there are other weapons with a grappling ability, where if you crit you can start a grapple maneuver as a free action.
But rereading your post I think you mean something more along the lines of being able to start a grapple as a free action whenever you hit someone with a melee attack with a different weapon (i.e., you hit with your longsword and it somehow triggers your grapple ability with your arms). Is that how Hamatula Strike works? You impale them on your spear and then grapple with your arms? Wait...then if you also have Hamatulatsu Strike and you hit them with a piercing unarmed and then impale them and oh no, I've gone cross-eyed. Forget all that.
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Well, imagine if (hypothetically), you were fighting with a longsword and had the GRAB ability. Would you assume that you could slash someone with your longsword and then grapple them with your longsword? A longsword is not a very good grappling tool; I would assume you slashed them with your longsword and then used GRAB to grapple them with your arms (trying not to stab yourself in the face with your own sword when you put them in a choke-hold).I would then assume that, if it was a +1 longsword and you had Weapon Focus (longsword), that those bonuses apply when you slash the guy a with your longsword but they would not apply when you GRAB/grapple them with your arms.
Now, I don't know how to get GRAB while fighting with a longsword, so this is probably just a hypothetical situation*, but I don't see it any differently than the OP's...
That's pretty much my point, I can't think of any examples whereby a weapon grants you a combat maneuver rider on hit and it doesn't involve using the weapon in the combat maneuver. Elven Branched Spear granting steal involves hooking items away with the spear, Mancatcher provides grapple and involves using it directly upon an enemy to do so, and so on with other trip, disarm, grapple weapons (such as the harpoon) etc.
IF there was such a thing as a longsword with Grab then maybe it might be cause to reconsider (then again, if it involved 'sticking' someone to your weapon getting a more solid hit with more blade would make it easier... hence the hit bonus could well apply), but as far as I know there isn't, all the weapons granting such abilities tie into being used during the maneuver, hence my understanding that any bonuses on the hit carry on over to the attack due to the rules I mentioned before.
In the case of Hamatula strike it specifically involves the weapon you use to attack, as that's mentioned in the rules for it.
Whenever you damage an opponent with a piercing weapon, you can immediately make a grapple check; success means the opponent is impaled on your weapon
Now, I don't know how to get GRAB while fighting with a longswordThat's pretty much my point, I can't think of any examples whereby a weapon grants you a combat maneuver rider on hit and it doesn't involve using the weapon in the combat maneuver.
I can.
Unarmed Strike.
The Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats make it very clear that unarmed strike is a different weapon category than grapple. Since they are separate distinct things, then bonuses to one don't automatically apply to the other.
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There's one thing I haven't stated here, and I should make the following point clear: grappling has enough problems being useful that I'm not opposed to, and probably even support a house rule to apply ALL bonuses that affect your generic unarmed combat of any kind to apply to all grapple checks. I'm fine with that.
I just think it's not RAW.
Now, I don't know how to get GRAB while fighting with a longswordThat's pretty much my point, I can't think of any examples whereby a weapon grants you a combat maneuver rider on hit and it doesn't involve using the weapon in the combat maneuver.I can.
Unarmed Strike.
The Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats make it very clear that unarmed strike is a different weapon category than grapple. Since they are separate distinct things, then bonuses to one don't automatically apply to the other.
Okay, then so your saying the reason why it wouldn't work is because you PUNCH then as your hand connects you open your hand and GRAB and pull them in for a GRAPPLE, which are different enough that the weapon (the PUNCH) is not involved in the combat maneuver (the GRAB/GRAPPLE).
Then if your unarmed strikes dealt piercing damage and you had the Hamatula Strike feat, your strike instead of being a PUNCH is now a STAB WITH FINGERS which then, instead of changing to a GRAB can plunge into your target and IMPALE which is the GRAPPLE, which in this case means the weapon (the STAB WITH FINGERS) _is_ involved in the combat maneuver (the IMPALE/GRAPPLE)... along with being really disgusting.
(Note: The above is purely theorycrafting because there's no way in hell I'm planning on changing the character to this because there isn't enough hand sanitizer in the world for a character that does this.)
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I can.Unarmed Strike.
The Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats make it very clear that unarmed strike is a different weapon category than grapple. Since they are separate distinct things, then bonuses to one don't automatically apply to the other.
You're quite right and that's probably the best argument against allowing it, that said it certainly seems to be in contradiction to how the Combat Maneuver rules are written. It's also certainly possible that since those descriptions were written long before there was really any way for players to get the Grab ability or similar it simply didn't take into account that possibility, but given that the rules for Focus/Specialisation say one thing and the CM rules another I think 'ask your GM' is about the best answer anyone can give (no idea what the PFS ruling on this is, table variation?)
Now, I don't know how to get GRAB while fighting with a longswordThat's pretty much my point, I can't think of any examples whereby a weapon grants you a combat maneuver rider on hit and it doesn't involve using the weapon in the combat maneuver.I can.
Unarmed Strike.
The Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats make it very clear that unarmed strike is a different weapon category than grapple. Since they are separate distinct things, then bonuses to one don't automatically apply to the other.
Okay, then so your saying the reason why it wouldn't work is because you PUNCH then as your hand connects you open your hand and GRAB and pull them in for a GRAPPLE, which are different enough that the weapon (the PUNCH) is not involved in the combat maneuver (the GRAB/GRAPPLE).
Then if your unarmed strikes dealt piercing damage and you had the Hamatula Strike feat, your strike instead of being a PUNCH is now a STAB WITH FINGERS which then, instead of changing to a GRAB can plunge into your target and IMPALE which is the GRAPPLE, which in this case means the weapon (the STAB WITH FINGERS) _is_ involved in the combat maneuver (the IMPALE/GRAPPLE)... along with being really disgusting.
(Note: The above is purely theorycrafting because there's no way in hell I'm planning on changing the character to this because there isn't enough hand sanitizer in the world for a character that does this.)
I wouldn't go that deep. Unarmed Strike =/= Grapple. Two different things, no matter what flavor we put on it when we make the strike.
Find a feat (or other ability) that clearly says to apply your Unarmed Strike modifiers to Grapple checks and then that would be an instance of a specific rule overriding a general rule.
Without such a clearly written specific rule, I'm inclined to say that RAW treats them differently and the bonuses don't cross over (all the bonuses that apply to ALL your attack rolls, like the bonus from Bless, do apply to CMB checks; we're only worried about the bonuses that specify one attack such as Unarmed Strike).
Your point about impaling with Hamatula Strike makes perfect sense but it doesn't clearly state it's overriding the general rule with a new specific rule so the general rule still applies, by RAW. And as I've said before, I'd support house-ruling it to work even without Hamatula Strike, but this is a Rules Questions forum where we discuss RAW; I remain unconvinced that the RAW wants to treat these rules as if Unarmed Strike = Grapple.
