Rapid Grappler (Combat) wrote: You are a quick hand at grappling.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +9 or monk level 9th.
Benefit: Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action, you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check.
I had never interpreted this quite so literally before, but this looks entirely RAW legal to me.
However my question is RAI (unless someone wants to point out where I'm wrong per RAW).
Is it intended to be able to initiate a grapple vs a new target with Rapid Grappler?
Is it intended that Rapid Grappler is NOT restricted to a GCMC against the same creature? (I've been curious about this one for awhile now -- it seems strongly implied to me that it's against the same creature)
And in case there's anyone who cares "why?"
Grabbing Style
You killed the target of your maintain and another target is in reach.
It seems entirely legal to me.
In fact, this raises quite the interesting question to me. If you somehow had a third limb that worked just as well as your other limbs, or a prehensile tail like from a tiefling, could you possibly use that third limb to grapple even a third target at the same time? Move action to maintain the first target, suddenly swift to grapple a second, and standard to grapple the third.
Johnny_Devo wrote: It seems entirely legal to me.
In fact, this raises quite the interesting question to me. If you somehow had a third limb that worked just as well as your other limbs, or a prehensile tail like from a tiefling, could you possibly use that third limb to grapple even a third target at the same time? Move action to maintain the first target, suddenly swift to grapple a second, and standard to grapple the third.
This has been asked a few times now because of Grabbing Style, I don't remember seeing dissent about it.
Ostensibly, you can grapple as many targets as you have "hands" (including pretty much any apendage with Grab I think). However, that prehensile tail does not seem to qualify, even with the Grasping Tail feat (unless I've missed something).
With Grabbing Master, you should be able to maintain on 6 targets. (but it's difficult to initiate the 6th w/o Grab)
Archaeik wrote: Johnny_Devo wrote: It seems entirely legal to me.
In fact, this raises quite the interesting question to me. If you somehow had a third limb that worked just as well as your other limbs, or a prehensile tail like from a tiefling, could you possibly use that third limb to grapple even a third target at the same time? Move action to maintain the first target, suddenly swift to grapple a second, and standard to grapple the third.
This has been asked a few times now because of Grabbing Style, I don't remember seeing dissent about it.
Ostensibly, you can grapple as many targets as you have "hands" (including pretty much any apendage with Grab I think). However, that prehensile tail does not seem to qualify, even with the Grasping Tail feat (unless I've missed something).
With Grabbing Master, you should be able to maintain on 6 targets. (but it's difficult to initiate the 6th w/o Grab)
Hmm. I don't follow this logic. Aren't you only allowed a single swift action per turn? As far as I can tell, 3 targets = 3 actions, spending your standard, your move, and your swift.
Johnny_Devo wrote: Archaeik wrote: With Grabbing Master, you should be able to maintain on 6 targets. (but it's difficult to initiate the 6th w/o Grab)
Hmm. I don't follow this logic. Aren't you only allowed a single swift action per turn? As far as I can tell, 3 targets = 3 actions, spending your standard, your move, and your swift. Grabbing Master (Combat) wrote: You can grapple two foes as easily as one.
Prerequisites: Grabbing Drag, Grabbing Style, Improved Grapple; base attack bonus +12, brawler level 8th, or monk level 8th.
Benefit: When you are grabbing two opponents while using Grabbing Style, you can use your grapple to move or damage one or both opponents you are grappling, instead of just one.
RAW has a few issue with what I said, which is why I italicized should.
RAI seems to imply both targets are successfully maintained with a single check -- so it's 3 maintains x2 per action for 6 targets.
Hmm. This seems to mean that you'd have to somehow gain a total of 6 usable hands.
I think people are reading beyond RAW re: the concept of hands limitation... It doesn't state that you "dedicate" a hand in order to "maintain" a Grapple in the controlling position, simply the initial check is more difficult if you don't have enough free hands. The grappled conditions disallows actions using 2 hands, but that applies both the controller and the target.
If you want a visualization, you use a free hand or two to "initiate" the grapple (incl for "maintain" check which is really a pin/move/bonus damage) but while you are "maintaining" the grapple condition (not maintain check, just until your next turn), you could be doing so with your legs in a scissor hold. Of course, visualization wise, you only have one set of legs, but per RAW I don't see how each grapple is monopolizing at least one hand, our anything beyond explicit restrictions of grapple conditions - which themselves can be bypassed even without grab.
Johnny_Devo wrote: Hmm. This seems to mean that you'd have to somehow gain a total of 6 usable hands. That's why you shape change into an octopus.
I agree that "realism" suggests that grapple can be done with legs, I also think if you're going down this road that you're both almost always also prone while doing so.
Per the rules, I think the best adjudication is to require "hands" for the action, especially since the distinction for grapple vs pinned has been described as only having a hold on your opponent vs full on wrestling, and the action description gives a penalty for less than 2 hands.
I'd be curious what a FAQ would say regarding the situation, as the image of having a bunch of creatures simultaneously "held" in a scissor lock is kind of amusing. I agree this could be better detailed.
(I would point out that, RAI, a humanoid creature with the grappled condition still only has 1 hand free -at a time- and would take the penalty to start another grapple, even if the flavor of the first is a scissor hold)
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
