okay, Just wondering. what is the actual difference between the two? both gives you an extra attack at a -2 penalty and both can only be used in a full round action. so what is the actual difference? I ask cause it gets really tricky when trying to meet prerequisites for certain feats.
could someone please explain the difference for me please.
|
Flurry of Blows (not the unchained version), works almost exactly like Two-Weapon Fighting, to the point that the two cannot be used together. It has the advantage of being compatible with two-handed weapons and/or allowing you to deal full strength damage with your "off-hand" attacks natively. However, it does not count as having the feats to determine other prereqs.
What feat are you trying to take that you want to qualify for?
The unchained version gives you extra attacks without as much confusing verbage, but still doesn't stack with or count as Two-Weapon Fighting for prerequisites.
Basically if something is intended to work with Two-Weapon Fighting, it probably doesn't work with Flurry, and vice versa. They're two different and mutually exclusive types of full attacks.
Flurry of Blows (not the unchained version), works almost exactly like Two-Weapon Fighting, to the point that the two cannot be used together. It has the advantage of being compatible with two-handed weapons and/or allowing you to deal full strength damage with your "off-hand" attacks natively. However, it does not count as having the feats to determine other prereqs.
What feat are you trying to take that you want to qualify for?
The unchained version gives you extra attacks without as much confusing verbage, but still doesn't stack with or count as Two-Weapon Fighting for prerequisites.
Basically if something is intended to work with Two-Weapon Fighting, it probably doesn't work with Flurry, and vice versa. They're two different and mutually exclusive types of full attacks.
well the issue only comes up because of the shield champion archetype with a brawlers flurry. quite often the shield champion class abilities say you gain a particular feat but you must meet the prerequisites. for example, at level 11 you get the shield master feat. but you need to have the TWF feat. which, really is kinda pointless since at level 2 you get brawlers flurry.
the reason I ask is because, I don't understand why flurry's don't say, that this counts as TWF when qualifying for feats when in reality. its just an enhanced version of it. its just an annoying feat tax.
Assuming Monk's Flurry: Flurry doesn't have reduced damage for the off-hand attack and can be done with one weapon-- even a weapon wielded in two hands, though you only get 1x Str there.
oh okay, so really its just a better version of TWF
Ah. Okay. Brawler's Flurry.
So first things first: there are three different Flurries that share only superficial similarities. Monk's, Brawler's, Unchained Monk's.
Brawler's Flurry will count as TWF for the purpose of feat prerequisites, but those feats will only apply while you're Flurrying.
So would that mean, for example; If I took the Feat Two Weapon Defence. I wold only get the +1 AC when flurrying as apposed to having +1 AC all the time whilst wielding two weapons?
oh okay, so really its just a better version of TWF
Kind of, except it comes with a lot of restrictions in return for that.
Namely- most monks cannot wear armor when they flurry, and you usually need to use monk weapons (which generally have poor to middling crit range and damage dice). [side note- sohei can wear light/mithral medium armor, and they can flurry with the weapons in the group they choose for weapon training; this includes the 18-20/x2 nodachi, a katana/greatsword basically, in the polearm group]
Also, in return for the advantages, a monk's flurry does not count as TWF at all.
Brawler's flurry is a different mechanic though, which is actually TWF (gives the feat, counts for prereqs), but keeps some of the nicer features of flurry mentioned in previous posts. A bit of a mixing of the two mechanics for better results, basically.
So you can take 2 levels of brawler, and then move out to another class and take Improved TWF, Greater TWF, and Two Weapon Rend (which you could grab if you go into slayer/ranger, for instance). And your flurry would still be able to get the monk advantages of using a single 2 handed weapon...but you keep some of the restrictions as well- you can only use monk and close weapons in the flurry (the damage dice on close weapons improves with a class feature...but all have rather poor criticals- you are not proficient in any good monk weapons other than the cestus really)
oh okay, so really its just a better version of TWFKind of, except it comes with a lot of restrictions in return for that.
Namely- most monks cannot wear armor when they flurry, and you usually need to use monk weapons (which generally have poor to middling crit range and damage dice). [side note- sohei can wear light/mithral medium armor, and they can flurry with the weapons in the group they choose for weapon training; this includes the 18-20/x2 nodachi, a katana/greatsword basically, in the polearm group]
Also, in return for the advantages, a monk's flurry does not count as TWF at all.
Brawler's flurry is a different mechanic though, which is actually TWF (gives the feat, counts for prereqs), but keeps some of the nicer features of flurry mentioned in previous posts. A bit of a mixing of the two mechanics for better results, basically.
So you can take 2 levels of brawler, and then move out to another class and take Improved TWF, Greater TWF, and Two Weapon Rend (which you could grab if you go into slayer/ranger, for instance). And your flurry would still be able to get the monk advantages of using a single 2 handed weapon...but you keep some of the restrictions as well- you can only use monk and close weapons in the flurry (the damage dice on close weapons improves with a class feature...but all have rather poor criticals- you are not proficient in any good monk weapons other than the cestus really)
so are you disagreeing with kestral287 in that, you think that having brawlers flurry always meets the prerequisites. and so, like in my example I gave earlier. would two weapon defence only apply when flurrying or does it apply every time you wield two weapons, which in the brawlers case, is all the time thanks to improved unarmed strike.
so are you disagreeing with kestral287 in that, you think that having brawlers flurry always meets the prerequisites. and so, like in my example I gave earlier. would two weapon defence only apply when flurrying or does it apply every time you wield two weapons, which in the brawlers case, is all the time thanks to improved unarmed strike.
No, I am do not find myself in opposition to him. I am not experienced enough to comment on how the rules forum has found the exact nature of when it counts as existing for the effects of skills.
Actually, you picked the one feat that is problematic with the set up, it seems. All the other main TWF feats are things you only use when you are actually doing TWF. In that case, the brawler's flurry's exact nature would not matter since the feats would normally not come up when you aren't full attacking anyway.
All I will say is that you are qualified to take the feat. Whether the exact nature of flurry reduces its usefulness is for more experienced forum goers to judge.
Also- with flurry, you might not even qualify for the effects of the feat even when it would be allowed. Remember, one of the main advantages of flurry is that you can do it with a single weapon (and as such you do not need to buy two expensive weapons- saved cost means you can upgrade the single weapon more and still have cash left over).
Two weapon defense needs you to either wield 2 weapons, or use a double weapon. So...have fun with your quarterstaff, since I do believe that is the only monk double weapon you have. Which is not good for your shield champion (who would normally want to 2 hand a heavy shield for the x1.5 power attack bonuses).
so are you disagreeing with kestral287 in that, you think that having brawlers flurry always meets the prerequisites. and so, like in my example I gave earlier. would two weapon defence only apply when flurrying or does it apply every time you wield two weapons, which in the brawlers case, is all the time thanks to improved unarmed strike.No, I am do not find myself in opposition to him. I am not experienced enough to comment on how the rules forum has found the exact nature of when it counts as existing for the effects of skills.
Actually, you picked the one feat that is problematic with the set up, it seems. All the other main TWF feats are things you only use when you are actually doing TWF. In that case, the brawler's flurry's exact nature would not matter since the feats would normally not come up when you aren't full attacking anyway.
All I will say is that you are qualified to take the feat. Whether the exact nature of flurry reduces its usefulness is for more experienced forum goers to judge.
Also- with flurry, you might not even qualify for the effects of the feat even when it would be allowed. Remember, one of the main advantages of flurry is that you can do it with a single weapon (and as such you do not need to buy two expensive weapons- saved cost means you can upgrade the single weapon more and still have cash left over).
Two weapon defense needs you to either wield 2 weapons, or use a double weapon. So...have fun with your quarterstaff, since I do believe that is the only monk double weapon you have. Which is not good for your shield champion (who would normally want to 2 hand a heavy shield for the x1.5 power attack bonuses).
I think you'd be better off using it with the light shield since you can't throw the heavy shield and thats really one of the best abilities the shield champion has. but yeah, thanks. from what I understand the shield champion is really poorly written and the creator made a lot of mistakes when creating it. like shield champions not actually be proficient with shields when used as weapons :p
Actually, shields are part of the close weapon group, which a Shield Champion Brawler is proficient with.
An interesting thing about Flurry is that it happens on your turn, not your round. Therefore, you would not be flurrying when it is not your turn. Which means you would not benefit from Two-Weapon Defense except during your actions.
With the addition of the Pummeling Style feats, I have to say that I play a Shield Champion every week and have never thrown my shield. I have never found a place where it was more advantageous then keeping the AC and pummeling.
YMMV.
Actually, shields are part of the close weapon group, which a Shield Champion Brawler is proficient with.
An interesting thing about Flurry is that it happens on your turn, not your round. Therefore, you would not be flurrying when it is not your turn. Which means you would not benefit from Two-Weapon Defense except during your actions.
With the addition of the Pummeling Style feats, I have to say that I play a Shield Champion every week and have never thrown my shield. I have never found a place where it was more advantageous then keeping the AC and pummeling.
YMMV.
actually shield champions aren't proficient with the close weapon group, the archetype loses that particular proficiency. its apparently a mistake made by the Devs. I think they meant to get rid of all of the close combat weapons group proficiencies with the exception of the shield. I think most DM's would allow it though cause its quite clearly a mistake by the Devs that I hope they fix in errata soon.
and at level 5 you gain a very specific returning shield ability which unlike other returning properties, doesn't return at the beginning of your next turn but returns to you at the end of the turn. so for the most part your rarely without the AC bonus, the only time is if something happens to stop your shield from returning to you, or after you've thrown your shield but before it returns to you, you are the victim of an attack of opportunity. also the shield champions AC Bonus doesn't apply when wielding the shield. so the very brief periods you are without your shield bonus, you AC bonus kicks in to cover you.
Yeah, I guess you are correct, but they are still proficient with bucklers, light shields, and heavy shields, as listed under their weapon and armor proficiencies. There is no distinction between weapon and armor proficiencies when it comes to the shield.
They also still benefit from close weapon mastery (which is what I was probably thinking about) at level 5 and an even better version at level 12 where the shield does full unarmed strike damage.
The shield AC bonus is most likely lost when you attack with it. This is because there is nothing that allows one to don the shield as a free action. That is, of course, unless you are using a quickdraw shield and have quickdraw.
But you are right, the archetype needs some serious work.
Yeah, I guess you are correct, but they are still proficient with bucklers, light shields, and heavy shields, as listed under their weapon and armor proficiencies. There is no distinction between weapon and armor proficiencies when it comes to the shield.
They also still benefit from close weapon mastery (which is what I was probably thinking about) at level 5 and an even better version at level 12 where the shield does full unarmed strike damage.
The shield AC bonus is most likely lost when you attack with it. This is because there is nothing that allows one to don the shield as a free action. That is, of course, unless you are using a quickdraw shield and have quickdraw.
But you are right, the archetype needs some serious work.
oh thats right, sorry. My character has a quickdraw shield and the quickdraw feat. I'm so used to having it I always take it for advantage and forget to mention it haha. Yeah I was told that being proficient with a shield didn't mean that you were proficient with it as a weapon, you needed to have martial weapon proficiency for that but I haven't actually seen an official ruling.
and you get to keep the AC bonus if you have improved shield bash, which you'll normally take asap as its a required prerequisite for most of the shield champions abilities. and when you throw it, whilst you're without it your Brawler AC bonus ability kicks in. kind of weird because it gets better as you get better with your shield and so, with or without your shield. your ac bonus rarely seems to change once you get to the higher levels :p providing you have a light shield and not a tower shield.
I have heard that about martial weapon proficiency also. But then again, I have never seen it listed as such anywhere. I mean, there is no mention of Armor Proficiency not including Armor Spikes. And normally the only attack with a shield is a shield bash. Which is listed as part of the shield's description.
But like you said, and most agree, the Shield Champion is a horrible example of well formulated rules.