Sigh...one of my PCs wants to drain it in order to recover the Paradise.
There are probably several easier ways to get the barge than draining the lake. You might want to mention that draining the lake will likely be very detrimental to the creatures that live in it and the locals who depend on it for a living and food.
What are they trying to achieve? If they have the ability to drain the lake - which should take considerable magic - they should be able to come up with a method to breathe water to explore and even "loot" the barge.
You might also mention the lake is fed by not one but two rivers (Skull and Willow) and with all the rain, there's a lot of water flowing into the lake.
To answer the question: The AP (p. 397) says the wreck is in 40 feet down and I suppose you wouldn't have to lower the water level much past that to get at the ruined barge.
Thanks for the note as to the depth. I was too busy face-palming his complaint that he couldn't do it due to GM fiat.
Everyone else in the group has pointed out the other magical options, but he's insistent.
The PC in question is convinced there's a runewell at the bottom of the lake that caused the sinking.
He has, though drawn up a nice diagram showing two (beaver-style) dams and two channels; one across the Kreigwoods and one bypassing the lake via the Shimmerglens.
This, btw, from a PC whose backstory includes working with the Gnomes of Sanos Forest.
Edit: I just realized...the path he plans to take for his canal cuts through Whitewillow...hmmmmm....
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is a civil engineering project worthy of a 20th century nation state.
The lake is approx 15 miles by 20 miles in size , and is at least 40 feet deep that approx 1.8 million tons of water. The romans built bigger dams than that but this is going to need concrete or walls of stone spells , and a decent engineering skill. It is also going to take a few months.
From what I have read (I am not a civil engineer)Beaver style dams are not going to cut it for this
This is not draining a garden pond.
edit
Also his dams are going to fail catastrophically when the big flood hits and that may make the devastation of turtleback ferry worse
Also his dams are going to fail catastrophically when the big flood hits and that may make the devastation of turtleback ferry worse
Yea, that's the main reason I kept telling him it wouldn't work, as he doesn't know the AP and I didn't want to spoil it. I can't see him being regarded as anything but a monster/mass murdered involved in the flooding attempt to begin with.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So in addition to draining the lake, he is also going to build two dams and two canals to route two rivers around the lake? What work force is going to perform these wondrous tasks? How long does he think this will take? What about the Black Arrows - you know, the people he/they were sent to helpl?
And exactly how does he propose to drain the lake? Some kind of magical bilge pump? And where does he think the water will go? Downstream? Beyond the impact to the local community, I'm confident downstream towns will be none too pleased.
Sorry to be repetitive, but perhaps the pc's should actually explore the wreck to find out what happened and whether there is a runewell to be found at the bottom of the lake. This seems a much lower investment of time and effort and a key step to justify herculean engineering feats.
I totally agree, Latrecis. I'm mainly looking for arguments from the locals to persuade him, before they launch an all-out attack on him.
BTW, we're using Mythic and he has the speed upper, so he thinks it wouldn't take that long.
I'm tempted to have a dryad blind him when he tries to chop her tree.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is a stupid plan
1) There goes the ferry business its a mud flat now
2) End of fishing on the lake
3) I cannot conceive of any way this is not going to take weeks or months to do . It will take weeks to build the diversion channels,, then the dams on the entrance, then the lake has to drain this is going to mean deepening the exit outflow , another huge undertaking. Even magic is not going to speed this up much , all the spells deal with (compared to the scale of his project) small volumes.
I would tell the player yes you can do this it will take 4 months, so design another character to keep adventuring with the rest of the party while your main character is here digging. He should finish shortly after they resolve the entire AP
How far along in the Book are they?
Have they dealt with the Grauls? Ft. Rannick? The Kreeghold? Black Magga and the dam?
If not, one answer is to simply call his bluff. Let him start. Then his dams and canals and any work site, laborers, etc. get attacked by the Grauls or the Ogres (or both!) When he gets that settled, the Skull River floods - dramatically increasing the water level of the lake and Black Magga careens into town, trashing any dams and generally unleashing mayhem. When they go deal with that, they find ogres trying to destroy the Skull's Crossing dam, etc.
The traditional sequence is: Grauls, Rannick, Magga, Skull's Crossing, Shimmerglens, Kreeghold. But there's no reason it has to go in that order. If the player's are dilly-dallying or otherwise distracted, the events can happen in any order. If no one deals with the ogres at Rannick, they should start making trouble - attacking the town, etc. Heck if they're messing with the area near the Shimmerglens, don't see any reason for Myrianna not to attack, destroy any dam or canal and demand Lamatar be returned to her as penance for daring to harm her lands.
Technically speaking, draining the lake could be seen as thwarting Lucretia's plan to flood the town and capture greedy souls for Karzoug. Draining the lake should draw her ire as well. You could argue draining the lake should be opposed by every sentient being in the region - good or bad; townsfolk, wild land dweller or ogres.
Lynch mobs of wandering Druids
Black Magga perhaps, works for Loch Ness :-)
How far along in the Book are they?
** spoiler omitted **
I'm completely with Latrecis on this one - let the guy start to work on it. It'll be a complete fiasco as events move forward.
The only danger is in how much of a jerk you end up looking like for simply letting the events unfold while the party in engaging in a major civil engineering project, especially after you have already been accused of vetoing a player's actions.
The APs are pretty scripted as is and I think you have to be careful in allowing things to occur without making the players feel that they are just on a train ride.
Have a greedy entrepreneur show up to show a positive interest in the plan and help. Have him bring the problems to the PC as obstacles that they (the entrepreneur and the PC) have to work to overcome. The NPC wants to get at the boat because he thinks there is a massive safe full of riches. Then proceed as Latrecis indicates above.
Heck, in fact I may add the idea of an NPC like that in myself when I get to that point!
If you like, you could let him succeed in (partially) draining the lake, far enough to uncover the boat and maybe put it on top of a semi-wet dungeon complex. Then just refluff the whole "on top of the dam" part of the adventure as being "under the lake". Merrows instead of regular ogres (or maybe ogres with water breathing potions, etc.) guarding the den instead of wrecking it, that sort of thing.
You'd still need him to find a work force to build the diversion dams, convince them to keep working, maybe defend his dams from Black Magga, before springing the surprise.
Work with the player -- you could have a very fun adventure here. It does require more work on your part than just running the thing as written, but it might be worthwhile.
Well, I'm going to let him try. He'll be facing locals, ogrekin, giant turtles, nightbelly boas, gnomes of all classes, dryads, and other fey trying to stop him and given that the depth of the river exiting the lake is probably about 15', even if he gets his canals built, it will not affect the lake that much.
It remains to be seen if the rest of the party will support him. At least half of them (and Shalelu) will probably be joining the surviving Black Arrows in the attempt to retake Fort Rannick, so at least he'll be keeping up in xp.
That is, if he and his halfing cohort survive.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wait, what? In addition to pursuing profoundly disruptive and unwanted alterations to the local ecology on the flimsiest of justifications, they intend to split the party?
It would be simpler if the players would just come right out with a formal request: Could we have a TPK, please?
Princess Bride got it wrong. In addition to "Never start a land war in Asia" and "Never go in against a Sicilian when Death is on the line" there is another Classic Blunder: Never split the party. Groups that do it, get whatever misery and suffering the DM choose to inflict. And don't get to whine about it later.
Oh, yes, Katrecis, he already tried to run off and start chopping down trees with an adamantine longsword.
Amusingly, while trying to estimate how long it would take, I found these rules:
Digging rules:
A Normal Shovel: This tool lets you dig a pit at a rate of 2 cubic feet per minute. It will not smash rock.
Calculations based on Mattock of the Titans (not that he HAS one!)
A Mattock of the Titans allows any creature of at least Huge size to use it to loosen or tumble earth or earthen ramparts (a 10-foot cube every 10 minutes). It also smashes rock (a 10-foot cube per hour). 1 mile = 5280 feet; so: since every 10’ cube has 100 1’ cubes and there are 5280 feet per mile:
Loose earth: 10-feet/10 min = 1-foot/min that would be 5380 min x 100=538000/60 = 8800 hours/mile in loose earth
Rock: 10-feet/hour, so 5380 feet x 100= /10= 52800 hours/mile in rock
You will need to make a channel at least 20 x 20 to get it flowing, so multiply those results by 4, then allowing for 12 hrs/day digging before exhaustion sets in.
8800 x 4 =35200 hs/12 hrs =2933.333; call it 2933 days per mile
52800 x 4 = 211200 hrs/12 hrs = 17600 days per rock mile
Why 12 hours:
I’m figuring you’d need/want to dig a full 8 hours and with your Samurai resolve you can lengthen your work day by 1 hr per use: you currently have 4 uses/day.
If anyone can confirm/correct my math, I'd appreciate it.
Funniest bit? The player says he's an engineer, but his PC doesn't have the skill.
OK, I just realized an error in my calculations...
I'd already realized those rivers have to be at least a half-mile wide by the map. While a canal 20' deep will be necessary, it's going to have to be much wider to take the whole flow.
Dagnabit...why am I still awake thinking about this stuff?!?!?
I don't know, I would've dismissed it as an impossibly hard red herring long ago, by putting this much thought and effort you might be validating the situation in his eyes, just saying :-)
I don't know, I would've dismissed it as an impossibly hard red herring long ago, by putting this much thought and effort you might be validating the situation in his eyes, just saying :-)
I was actually feeling a bit guilty about the two times I handwaved/GM fiated his character getting put out of the fight on days he missed.
I am hoping he'll see the impossibility himself and come up with something else big for his samurai to do.
One of the characters has a big, ongoing sub-plot, and is role-playing it to the hilt. Since that character is played by my husband, I've been begging the others to come up with plots of their own. Unfortunately, this lake thing is what the samurai's player came up with.
Sigh...
Leave it to an engineer to find the most impossible sub plot
As someone with extensive experience with digging and drainage I can honestly say it'll take forever, between the soggy ground (made worse by too much rain) the countless roots and rocks, he'll have to clear out a large section of the woods just to keep the channels from collapsing....
There's gotta be a sidetrek involving his background you can distract him with :-)
Has the fact the lake water is currently *rising* been factored into this?
Have someone with an engineering skill turn up and say it is impossible because runoff water from the surrounding land, let alone the river upstream, will have filled the lake up with more than the amount of dug ground or drainage by the time it is finished?
Or have a stray ranger (that wasn't at the fort) come back injured and up the ante by warning the town/PCs that there's been "rumblings" up where the dam is, and there is water moving slowly over the ground at either side of the river, too much to get back across to the fort to warn them, and came to the town instead, dodging ogres all the way. Btw, has there been any news from the fort???
He doesn't have engineering. I'll solve this with "it takes 1 month, and a DC 30 Knowledge: engineering roll". He doesn't have the skill, so he has to retreat.
Being able to *work* in a civil engineering project is not the same than being able to *design* one
By "have someone turn up" I meant an NPC?
Actually, Vale, one of the surviving Black Arrows is an engineer.
Actually, Vale, one of the surviving Black Arrows is an engineer.
That might actually be a good hook to get the player to save the Black Arrows so he can get help with his project. Might not do him any good afterwards, but at least it'll get him moving in the right direction instead of just sitting in one place.