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Why the basic fighter is a complete waste of time:
You have no recovery options.
You have no healing options.
You have no movement options.
You have no skills of any worth.
You have no out of combat utility/contribution.
The fighter is technically worse at using feats then most classes despite bonus feats (I.e. weapon focus - is a mere +1 affecting only one weapon, having bonus feats doesn't really provide the fighter any options, aka "One trick pony").
The fighter has no class ability to buff his companions, lead on a battlefield, or acquire followers.
What do I do?
1. Bump skill points to 4+int mod. Use the "Tactician" archetype skill list, plus Bluff. Fighters should be encouraged to utilize traits that grant access to an additional skill as a class skill. Fighters should be encouraged to use the preferred class bonus skill rank.
Suddenly, the fighter can TALK!
Suddenly the fighter can THINK!
Oh thank the heavens, no one *HAS TO* be a bard!
Suddenly the fighter eases out of being one dimensional.
The fighter gains a non-combat role, and can apply a variety of skills as combat tactics.
2. Lose tower shields to pay for some of this. lose armor training, lose bravery. no special access to heavy armor, no first level fighter can BUY Plate! A fighter must buy the feat to become proficient with heavy armor.
3. RULE CHANGE: Fighters ignore BAB requirements for fighter bonus feat purchases as part of a feat chain. This ability does not carry over if you multi-class, I.e. access to the advanced feats is lost until you purchase the Feats that the fighter style allowed you and you meet all the all requirements. This also prevents "one level dipping" to "Steal" all the fighter's cool toys. No rule afterward can ever change this or apply the fighter class special access benefit to any other class.
4. Fighter focus: select one focus at first level and gain an additional focus every 2nd level thereafter (3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 19th).
Muscle power: fighters "count as" having the power attack feat for feat progression.
Canny dodge: Fighters gain the canny dodge ability, gaining a dodge bonus of +1 per fighter level to a maximum of their intelligence modifier bonus, this bonus does not stack with other sources of canny dodge. Fighters "count as" having the dodge feat for feat chain progression.
Skilled at war: Fighters "count as" having the combat expertise feat for feat progression. once per encounter, You may use bluff in combat as a free action to deceive your opponent. This ability will not work against the same foe again should they encounter you later on. this is a language based effect. This is not feinting, if you successfully use bluff the opponent has their initiative standing reduced by 2.
Looks the same: Gain a weapon group. Feats like weapon focus and weapon specialization apply to your entire weapon group. This "counts as" weapon focus for feat progression. just because you have a +1 with a bunch of different weapons, doesn't actually do anything other than enhance your versatility.
Roaring shout: you may use intimidate in combat as a free action. You may intimidate to frighten foes as a free action. this is a language based effect.
Demand Surrender: You may use diplomacy in combat as a free action. this is a language based effect. Reducing the encounter reaction will simply end the fight, reducing the reaction by two and your foes may sheath their weapons.
Big Mouth: You automatically tell your allies any lore you know about your opponent in a short hand slang. your allies can benefit from your knowledge skill check result and may apply appropriate tactics without revealing your plans to the enemy.
Take Position: you may use acrobatics to jump, lunge, even tumble through an enemy space as a move action with no armor check penalty, only when this movement provides a combat advantage such as flanking.
Stay behind me: You provide an ally with cover if you stand directly between an ally and an attacking enemy, but only as long as you are not forcibly moved out of the way or become unable to use your dexterity bonus.
Blast blocker: your shield bonus adds to any save against gaze attacks and area affecting attacks. This "counts as" Shield focus for the purpose of feat chain progress.
Warded Denial: add double your shield bonus to your touch armor class, when you are the target of a touch attack or a ranged touch attack that hits within this range, you must drop your shield as a swift action and only the shield is struck by the effect.
Thicker skin: Only when in combat the fighter gains a bonus hit point for each point of metal armor based armor class. This "counts as" the Toughness Feat for the purposes of feat chain purchases.
Steel Tread: You gain a bonus on your combat defense modifier to resist any forced movement (trips, bull rush, overrun, awesome blow) equal to half your armor based armor class.
Stand and Fight: You can rally your allies with your demonstrated bravery. in a combat encounter every saving throw you make to resist any emotion based effect, language based attack, or mind control effect emboldens your allies. Your successful saving throws provides your allies who can see you with a +2 morale bonus on their own save against the same effect.
Rousing spirit: you may use perform (oratory) as a free action in combat to alert your fellows. I.e. you instantly end their flat footed condition enabling them to respond. This "Counts as" having the alertness feat for any feat chain progress.
Leading: you may use perform(dance) as an immediate action prior to a combat beginning to take a free non-provoking 5 foot step towards the enemy. This "counts as" having improved initiative for the purpose of progressing a feat chain.
Ins and Outs: in combat as a free action You may use a profession or crafting skill to devise a combat tactic that utilizes the weaknesses of your enemies specific weapon for the entire combat encounter. This intimate knowledge provides you one of the following: +2 damage on the sunder attempt, +2 on acrobatics skill checks to avoid provoking, or to cancel one non-magical special advantage the weapon bestows (*such as knocking aside a spear that has been set to receive a charge, or preventing a chain weapon from ignoring your shield).
Proficient with FIST: Your are considered armed regardless of what you hold in your hand, including nothing. Even if unarmed and naked you still have ferocity, tenacity, and cunning! "Counts as" improved unarmed combat feat or catch off guard feat for feat chain progression purposes.
5. Faith in Steel: level 2. the full armor bonus counts against fear effects. Also, half armor bonus is a bonus to will saves.
This fighter gains a Non-combat role of being able to TALK!
This Fighter can be Tactical with the application of skills!
This Fighter can Speak in combat to affect the enemy and communicate to allies.
This fighter gains a one feat lead with feat chains.
with all the bonus feats and fighter class specific feats, Feat chains are the fighter's purview. Thus we should highlight this feature by giving the fighter a clear advantage in this department. a head start as it were, with more than one feat chain is overdue to bring the fighter up to par as several classes now get access to fighter feats! Let the non-fighters pay to gradually be good with one weapon, or one feat chain...
The fighter is the one who should have an arsenal of combat tactics to chose from. The fighter is the one who should be able to apply all skills to combat in some form. The fighter is the one who should wear heavy metal armor!
You mention in the last paragraph that the fighter should be the one weaeing heavy armor, yet you've removed both his heavy armor proficiency and his armor training. Can you explain the contradiction? If it's a core part of the fighter's identity, why did you remove it?
Before I even look into your proposed changes, I have largely the same issue with your "fix" as I do with the other numerous fixes on this forum. I strongly disagree with your analysis with the fighter's problems. I feel you (and others) only see the symptoms, not the root of the fighter's design issues. These include:
1) Lack of class features. The fighter has almost no class features. The ones they do have are largely numerical bonuses. The unique aspects of the fighter (weapon groups) are largely unrealized.
2) Flaws in the feat system. Game designer Sean K. Reynolds explained that one of the largest contributors to the fighter versus wizard disparity arises from a flaw with the feat system in comparison to prepared spells. A wizard essentially has the ability to rebuild their character at the start of each day. Feats require fighters to overspecialize, follow a feat tree, and do not allow them to adapt on a day to day basis. This observation led Sean K Reynolds to create the brawler's Martial Flexibility class feature and have feats work the same way as prepared spells in his new game Five Moons RPG.
As a result, simply making the fighter better at fighting doesn't really cut it. I'm not a fan of your proposed changes. Having fighters ignore BAB requirements is broken and doesn't really make any sense, especially when fighters are already the best at meeting feat requirements (barring classes that let you ignore them of course). Instead of making up a list of cute tricks with the Fighter Focus ability, I'd prefer just using the stamina system from Pathfinder Unchained. That system was heavily encouraged as a fighter only feature anyway.
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You mention in the last paragraph that the fighter should be the one weaeing heavy armor, yet you've removed both his heavy armor proficiency and his armor training. Can you explain the contradiction? If it's a core part of the fighter's identity, why did you remove it?
When you want it, buy it with feats.
The fighter focus concept is supposed to accelerate the fighter's progress through feat chains, not merely any set of feats.|
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the root of the fighter's design issues. These include:
1) Lack of class features.
2) Flaws in the feat system.Having fighters ignore BAB requirements is something I don't agree with. Instead of making up a list of Fighter Focus abilities, I'd prefer just using the stamina system from Pathfinder Unchained.
There. less insulting. see what I did there?
I did look at the fighter's issues. to "Fix" the fighter one must increase their skills to give them more depth. Just by adding the Tactician's skill list the fighter can take on more than "Climb, swim, Duh"! The fighter can be the party "Face" instead of limited to combat.
that is one VERY BIG issue.
The second is that other classes can benefit from fighter feats and pretty much match the fighter's progress in any SINGLE feat chain.
By giving the fighter "Counts as" virtual feats, the fighter can do something that no other class can. That being have early access to more than one feat tree.
this breaks the "One trick pony" flaw.
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The feat thing is massively unbalanced.
Fighter takes Critical Focus at 1st, Staggering Critical at 2nd, Stunning Critical at 4th. Proceed to laugh.
Meanwhile the Wizard has already been casting Glitterdust and Web, among other awesome s!*! for a whole level before this combo comes to life, and he gets f*##ing 3rd level spells next level.
Not at all unbalanced.
I agree. Why don't people see how a wizard can get a wand or two, and become a better fighter, than the fighter?
True strike, Mage armor, shield, Hello!!!
Weightless, no skill check, force effects (work against touch attack)!
Automatically hit! ignore many forms of DR...
or hey, vanish! invisibility! Charm person! FIRE BALL! LIGHTNING BOLT! FLY! seriously, freaking FLY! how does the humble fighter compare to that? Bab+, and weapon focus? are you NUTS! that isn't any utility at all - that is just a game mechanics based version of a Meat grinder.
What does the fighter do when He can't wear armor, when he can't use a two handed weapon, when he has to use a LIGHT weapon or his bear hands?
All I know is that the fighter is both centered on his equipment and simultaneously penalized HEAVILY by it.
I just suggested a way to provide the fighter MORE skills, and skill points to broaden their non-combat ability. I also suggested a way that the fighter can be Ahead of the curve when it comes to fighter feat chains and apply skills to combat.
so that the fighter isn't UBER when reduced to -7 int, -7 cha, nope. that kind of min maxing should be seen for what it is, as a PENALTY!
How the heck do people get away with claiming to "role play" that kind of character? That's not role playing, it is meta-gaming at its worst. Squeeze every last advantage out of a system to prop up a character's combat ability at the cost of ALL else, because that is all you are worth.
I want a system that doesn't just encourage fighters to be strong, and tough, but to also be quick physically and mentally. the smarter fighter is the one who should be better at fighting, by devising strategy's. The wise fighter should be able to analyze his opponents strengths. The charismatic fighter should be able to use his brazen charm and wits in combat to full effect! not have to "Suck it up" until they earn 6th or 9th level...
That is what I tried to do.
While I do agree the fighter needs some love in the skills department, Diplomacy doesn't make much sense to me. When I think of a fighter or soldier, I don't think of a heavily armed diplomat. There's already two martial classes that fill the "leader" type of martial: the cavalier and the paladin. In addition, other skill sets make much more sense for a fighter. The fighter already has the ability to reduce their armor check penalties, so why not focus on physical skills? Alternatively, you could give them mental abilities that have to do with fighting that could be useful outside of combat. I've seen ideas like giving the fighter the ability to "size up" an opponent or perform a Knowledge check to learn what feats a creature has. Even the classes all about studying foes don't have abilities like that.
the root of the fighter's design issues. These include:
1) Lack of class features.
2) Flaws in the feat system.Having fighters ignore BAB requirements is something I don't agree with. Instead of making up a list of Fighter Focus abilities, I'd prefer just using the stamina system from Pathfinder Unchained.
There. less insulting. see what I did there?
I don't follow. I attack design, not designers.
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The faceted fighter. Take traits to add class skills, the fighter is still retarded by the 2x skill points. bumping the fighter up to 4x skill points is justified because the fighter is dealing with the real world while spell casters are not.
but one needs to make Skills USEFULL to a fighter. I attempted to do this. Clearly, my idea is raw and needs polish.
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That is what I tried to do.That's great. It's a noble goal.
What you tried to do didn't work, is what you're being told. It's poorly balanced and does not solve your core objectives (the Fighter is not good at skills, the Fighter does not gain more options by being encouraged to work up feat chains one at a time). Okay.
Figure out what's wrong-- and you have people trying to tell you what's wrong, people that you're choosing to insult or rant to instead of having a discussion-- and try again.
Whoa! this is a first go at an idea. you are acting as if it is finalized. it is not. if you disagree with it - fine, say why (PRECISELY AND CONCISELY) without extemporaneous jibber-jabber. attempts at acerbic humor don't have a place here.
The idea is simple:
1. more skills, broader role in non-combat.
2. make skills useful, in and out of combat.
3. earlier access to feat chains by providing a virtual feat - the first from a feat chain, to encourage the feat chain's development.
4. I didn't remove the fighter's bonus feats. the example you gave for why this didn't work wasn't clear at all. Droping level and bab prerequisites we are left with just having the needed number of feat slots. by offering a starter virtual feat from a feat chain, in addition to bonus feats, gives the fighter TWO feats from a feat chain with one feat spent. the first level fighter would be able to have two feat chains started.
oh, and Q.u.z.k.x.f.b.#.n.d.l.
oh, and further more, I am not ranting or insulting others, but you are doing your best to toe at that line aren't you? stupid idea, it ididn't work, you need to learn to be more subtle as an internetz troll...
Do you understand why I am telling you this, or are my words too vague for you? did you forget to tell me what Prevented you from developing more than on feat chain - yes, you did. all you mention is dazzling display and TWF (TWO WEAPON FIGHTING, see not hard to use WORDS is it?)
two weapon fighting is the first feat in a combat feat tree, take it as a virtual. Weapon focus is the first feat in another feat chain, take that as a virtual two levels later, in the mean time: 1st level, 1st level fighter, 2nd level fighter, just provided three feats for your first chain - while third level and fourth level fighter, gives you two feats for your second.
Imagine 1st level, Dodge is a virtual feat, by second level that is now four feats deep in a feat chain - FIVE if you are human.
at 3rd level, combat expertise is virtual and you spend your third level feat on advancing a feat chain. 4th level, makes you three feat deep in a second feat chain.
5th level, take combat reflexes as a virtual, and the 5th level feat makes you two feats deep in a third feat chain...
it is a very rudimentary idea, but one worthy of consideration.
You are getting mad because he critiqued you negatively, and you are responding with more trolling comments then anything he used because of it.
You need to back off, settle down, or the thread will simply die because no one wants to respond to you.
That above was a classic rant. I suggest you delete it if you can and start over.
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The fighter is not the skill class. While I agree he needs more skills and to be able to do things with them, most of us agree you are going about it wrong.
If the fighter is supposed to be good at skills, then let him pick the skills he's good at, or you do it for him.
In my build, the fighter added his Weapon Training to Str and Dex class skills, Armor Training to Con skills and Bravery to mental skills (Resolve, actually, Bravery is a subset of Resolve).
So, he got bonuses to class skills.
If he took Expertise, he got to add Expertise to skills directly relating to war and/or combat.
If he took feats that buffed skills (Skill focus, skill synergy, skill training, etc), he got more bonuses then normal people.
At every Resolve/Bravery level, he added a skill point/level and another class skill of his choice.
At level 1, his skill list was still pretty small, but he got to pick two of his class skills straight off, so he could expand his list in any direction he took.
If he took Expertise, he automatically gained a skill point bonus if his Favored Class was Fighter (i.e. he could take a hit point and gain the skill point too).
removing BAB completely from reqs is generally a bad idea, as its one of the ways you control at what level to bring a feat in.
You basically need to do something more like ranger schools, where you can take feats early, but not THAT early.
I simply rewrote a lot of the feats and tied them to fighter class abilities. Then I made them more versatile, synergizing with other feats, and gave them something to scale with.
I think your fighter fix is not thought through.
I am especially critical of your decision to make them pay for heavy armor prof.
The fighter is THE class for heavy armor. If he want to GIVE IT UP...that's fine, that's an option, LET HIM. But don't make him pay for it.
The standard is to give up the Tower Shield and heavy armor prof for more skill points and bigger class skill list. It's an OPTION.
Then giving up medium armor and shield prof for int or wis to AC as a bonus for that swashbucklery stuff.
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I'll note that your build really doesn't do anything the fighter needs. All you really did is shuffle some stuff around, or move it up a few levels.
He's not any better at skills.
He doesn't have any movement options.
He doesn't really have any out of combat usages, other then maybe extra class skills.
He has no recovery options.
He has very minor ability to 'buff' teammates...mostly it's reactive stuff.
He has no ability to customize against an opponent, i.e. 'feat fetch' or some other ability.
With no ability to specialize in one weapon, his flavor becomes even more vanilla. He's now the Master Any Heavy Swordsman, not the Master of the Longsword. Again, I don't have problems with buffing Weapon Training, but Weapon Spec has always been the fighter's choice to take.
So, I'm not seeing how you've addressed much at all. It looks more like you've replaced some class features with feat effects, but you don't list out at what level.
I like fighter fixes and how people address them, but I'm not seeing much to like in yours.
==Aelryinth
Why the basic fighter is a complete waste of time:
You have no recovery options.
You have no healing options.
You have no movement options.
You have no skills of any worth.
You have no out of combat utility/contribution.
The fighter is technically worse at using feats then most classes despite bonus feats (I.e. weapon focus - is a mere +1 affecting only one weapon, having bonus feats doesn't really provide the fighter any options, aka "One trick pony").
The fighter has no class ability to buff his companions, lead on a battlefield, or acquire followers.
*Neither do lots of classes.
*Neither do lots of classes.*Neither do lots of classes.
*All skills have worth. Some are more useful/powerful than others, but its a matter of a player's or group's play style that makes an a class's entire skill list seem worthless.
*Out of combat contribution is the realm of the player, not the character. It is the player who role-plays and devises plans. Having a scrying spell or maxed-out diplomacy does not change that.
*The fighter is technically equal in feat capability to any character with the same feats. The one-trick pony is a player problem, not a fighter problem.
*True, conditionally true, and the fighter has the same opportunity as any other character to acquire followers.
But of course you are referring to mechanical tools that the fighter has available. All the above can be helped by your fighter focuses, traits, multiclassing, or allocation of non-combat feats.
What do I do?
1. Bump skill points to 4+int mod. Use the "Tactician" archetype skill list, plus Bluff. Fighters should be encouraged to utilize traits that grant access to an additional skill as a class skill. Fighters should be encouraged to use the preferred class bonus skill rank.Suddenly, the fighter can TALK!
Suddenly the fighter can THINK!
Oh thank the heavens, no one *HAS TO* be a bard!
Suddenly the fighter eases out of being one dimensional.
The fighter gains a non-combat role, and can apply a variety of skills as combat tactics.
*4 skill points per level is great and your expanded skill list is good, but I could make an argument for a skill list closer to a ranger's list than your bard-like list. Thats just a matter of a player's preference. Encouraging a player to spend his or her build resources on things like traits is not within the realm of class design. They exist to cater to customizing a character. The same advise you have given to the fighter could be given to literally -any- other class.
*Talking and thinking are what the player does. Class makes no difference. The character is only the filter through which these things happen.*The bard is a good class, but I don't see it in play any more than I do other classes. Its true that no one has to be a bard, but your fighter fix has nothing to do with that.
*One-dimensionality is an aspect of a player, not a character. A wizard has ability equal to the fighter to become one-dimensional.
2. Lose tower shields to pay for some of this. lose armor training, lose bravery. no special access to heavy armor, no first level fighter can BUY Plate! A fighter must buy the feat to become proficient with heavy armor.
Really not on board with losing heavy armor and armor training. IMHO it is/has become a hallmark of the pathfinder fighter to be the best at wearing armor. I would rather push it forward to actually achieve that goal instead of just dropping it. Similarly, bravery is great thematically, but sub-par mechanically. Could also use an improvement. Losing these things should be in the realm of archetypes, not core fighter.[/quote[
3. RULE CHANGE: Fighters ignore BAB requirements for fighter bonus feat purchases as part of a feat chain. This ability does not carry over if you multi-class, I.e. access to the advanced feats is lost until you purchase the Feats that the fighter style allowed you and you meet all the all requirements. This also prevents "one level dipping" to "Steal" all the fighter's cool toys. No rule afterward can ever change this or apply the fighter class special access benefit to any other class.
A flat-out ability to ignore BAB requirements contingent on not multi-classing sounds like sloppy design. I would have to see the exact wording you have in mind to make up my mind on that. If a class feature is so good that it shouldn't be allowed to those who dip for 1 level, then it shouldn't be a 1st level class feature. Rather that flat-out ignoring it, I would like much better counting as having a higher BAB for the purpose of qualifying for feats.
4. Fighter focus: select one focus at first level and gain an additional focus every 2nd level thereafter (3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 19th).
Some of these look pretty cool. You could leave armor training and weapon training, and allow these to be taken in place of bonus feats or to be taken in place of the bravery bonuses. It depends on how potent you make the focuses.
And finally, if you like getting feedback from people on the forum, you should be less defensive. I'm not judging you, because I've been there too. Many of the people responding to your idea have been giving feedback on classes, etc. for years - some have written their own fighter classes. I'm not saying that someone's else opinion on how to fix a fighter is more valid than yours, I'm saying that people are taking time out of their day to read and think about something you made, and you should accept that they -might- have good reasons for the responses they have given you.
One more "and finally"... Quoting someone and "fixing" what they wrote (such as what you did to Cyrad's response) is kind of rude, IMO.