Hello, fellow Pathfinder players and GMs!
I'm working in some house rules with my friends, and I've got the idea to do something in similar fashion of the Alternate Class features of the D&D 3.5 Player's Handbook 2.
Before chek the link, keep in mind that we banned the following feats: disruptive, greater penetrating strike, martial mastery, penetrating strike, spellbreaker and teleport tactician.
Hope you like it, and please leave your feedback!
Shameless bump.
Dang. You don't do anything by halves, do you?
My knee-jerk reaction is that this is really, really, really powerful. Swapping out a single feat for a SLA that not only scales, but becomes higher-level spells as it scales, is so good that it would be stupid not to take it.
Weapon Mastery doesn't bother me overly much, as all it does is increase choice, not power, which I'm totally fine with.
Destructive feels like a lot initially, but I feel like the actual end result is that the fighter who picks it stops worrying about what kind of weapon he's using or what the alignment of his opponents are, since DR is based either on material, damage type, or alignment. I'm not sure how I feel about that. It means less worrying about optimization, but I also feel like it takes away cool story opportunities with needing to find a silver sword or a holy hammer to fight a bad guy. + for versatility, - for RP loss.
Elusive Attack I don't really care about. Bonuses to AC get kind of superfluous at high levels anyway.
Disruptive, Counter-Stance, and Spellbreaker are all stand-ins for existing feats, none of them particularly bug me.
Destroyer of Magic is insane. With one class option you negate the vast majority of defensive options for opponents over CR 10, and add to that the ability to dispel magic with no cost or risk of any kind? This ability needs to brought down a few pegs.
The "Mettle" abilities don't particularly bug me, except for the capstones. The ability to auto-succeed at one type of save is ridiculously good. I can't think of a good replacement, but this really does just feel like too much.
Something I don't see is any way to improve the mobility of the fighter, which would be nice. You also might want to read through that document for editing, there seem to be a few spots where you moved things or didn't finish sections.
Aelryinth might drop in on this thread at some point to give his thoughts, he seems to be the most vocal advocate for improving fighters. You might look up some of his posts and see what he generally suggests for improving the fighter.
A lot of people would look at this and immediately toss it out as ridiculously over-powered. Without a closer look and some real testing, I'm not sure, but it's a fact to me that the existing fighter is ridiculously under-powered. It would be a good idea to build a fighter with these rules and compare him to a similarly-leveled Paladin and Barbarian to see how he measures up. If he seems automatically better or more powerful, you probably have some tweaking to do.
Hmm.
You have a typo on Mettle of Will.
I don't like using magical abilities for the fighter...completely destroys my view of him to rely on casting.
And Supernatural Casting is casting. That said...
He ends up with a ton of healing ability on himself only if you take the healing feat.
I find it interesting that he can remove conditions on himself OR heal himself, but can't do both.
Weapon Mastery is supremely Meh. It should just be part of Weapon Training as is.
Destructive - you may as well just say DR = level, with all DR at capstone.
Elusive Attack - Underpowered. Make it part of Vital Strike alternatives, usable on a full attack.
You're bringing back the Mage-Slayer line of feats with Disruptive and Spell-breaker, and your pastiche of Pierce Magical Concealment and Pierce Magical Protection. I suggest folding them in as variant uses of Vital Strikes.
Counter Stance: Robilar's Gambit comes home. I note you missed they also take +4 damage. Note, just like Come and Get Me, this is an insanely powerful option, generating tons of attacks. Also, Robilar's came online at 10 or 12, like CaGM, so you might want to pop it back a couple levels.
You probably need a very good defense against AoO's if you do this.
THe Mettle line is fine and thematic, although you really only need two of them (standard and greater)...and partial saves are rare enough for both Fort and Will that you should just consolidate them into one line, but keep the capstones separate. I.e. they must still choose to be immune to one or the other.
If you have Mettle, you may as well have Evasion as a choice too, you know?
Mirror Stance is much too strong. All such skills either resolve simultaneously or afterwards, otherwise you're killing things before they can swing at you on their turn.
And the ability to parry ANYTHING is like Crane Wing on crack. At the very least, it should be a choice of offense or defense, and I'd insist they be in defensive fighting or full defense to use it.
i.e. he can attack with his AoO's, or parry with his AoO's, but not both.
Mirror and Counter Stance are insanely strong and effectively power taxes if you allow them (as CaGM is for Barbs). There is no better way to generate attacks then those abilities, and at full BAB too.
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I don't see any alternatives for battlefield command, which surprised me. You're drawing from 3E, so I expected a Marshal's Aura effect.
I don't see anything for alternative/enhanced movement modes from the fighter.
I don't see any buffs to using skills for the fighter.
I don't see any expansion of skill points, training, feat flexibility, or such things.
I do see a bunch of very weirdly balanced effects of highly variable power levels.
I suggest that instead of Counter Stance, you remove Come and Get Me, and get everyone back on the same page.
The Fighter doesn't really need the combat buff, nor does the Barb.
I like the Pierce Feats, but even I kept them separate. I folded them into a new Vital Strike line of feats. Pierce Magical Concealment is a superb sensory buff and stand alone. Pierce Magical Protection is niche, but also extremely strong when it applies (basically, it's the anti-buffer feat). Classes that rely on buffs to be effective and the people who play them loathed both abilities.
I'll also note that both feats lowered any caster level you had by four EACH...which was also thematic and appropriate.
Your recovery mechanic probably needs work, the healing and restorative powers should be part of the same tree, not choices. I suggest you follow the paladin example if you do this, and simply have the conditions taken away if he mends himself.
And yes, I know you're basing it on the Godless Healing feat, which is supernatural.
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You probably want to add a fast movement option in there.
You probably want to add a morale bonus to friends in there.
You probably want to add bonuses to skills and/or making magic items option in there.
You probably want to remove anything which has gonzo combat output power or defense, namely the two stances.
If he wants to go anti-magic, make sure you lower any potential caster level. For his healing effects, just tie it directly to his level and don't make it a spell, just an effect.
==Aelryinth
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I'll be honest, as much as I think fighters really really need a self-heal in Pathfinder, I think what you've got for Second Wind is a little... much. I'd say maybe do it like the Witch/Shaman healing hex, where it works as a Cure Light Wounds spell from level 1-5, Cure Moderate from level 6-10, &c. (using your Fighter level as your "casting" level, of course. ...I guess that makes Second Wind an extraordinary effect, then.)
Fighter absolutely needs stuff like Marking from 4e (when you attack an opponent, you can mark him; he takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls against opponents that aren't you, and if he moves away from you, even to 5' step, that provokes an opportunity attack; you only get one active mark at a time), fast movement (you can move a total of [Con score] extra 5' squares per day, these need not be used in one uber-move), and morale bonus (allies within 20' of you can make one save against an effect currently affecting them, excluding poisons and diseases.)
Oh, and requisite "4 + Int mod skill points/level" and "Add Perception to the fighter class skill list" here. XD
Sorry for spacing issues, I'm kinda sleepy. =p
First of all, thanks to the input guys. You are awesome.
We have a FILE that have all the house rules. The biggest part of them are already tested with success, but we relly need help with the Fighter.
The basic of the fighter is the following:
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier. The fighter's class skills are Acrobatics(Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Perception(Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive(Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Combat Expertise are not a entry feat for any of the Improved Combat Maneuvers anymore, no longer needs INT 13, and was buffed to:
You can choose to take a -1 penalty on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This bonus to AC is increased by half (50%) if you are wielding a shield. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the dodge bonus increases by +1.
If you have base attack bonus +11, this bonus to AC is doubled (+100%) if you are wielding a shield.
Feats now scales alone, and much more. But, back to the Fighter Features.
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I nerfed the progression of the Second Wind and from the Iron Soul, and now are a extraordinary effect. I really need to stop write things while I'm sleepy. =p
Moved Weapon Mastery to the 1st level. I don't know how to make this ability more relevant.
Give the Fighter a scaling "Iron Guard's Glaring", now called Sentinel. Starts a -2 to hit and scales up to -10 at 20th. Wondering if that's too much.
New ability! Relentless Movement grants you a Barbarian Fast Movement that scales in Swim and Climb speed, and the capstone is Freedom of Movement.
Destructive now ignores your level of hardness and DR. I really thinks that the idea of a legendary swordsman cutting through anything, but at same time sunder builds can become scary. Thoughts?
Counter and Mirror Stance removed, as "Come and Get Me" from the Barbarian. Now there is a ability called to Parry blows at the expense of your AoOs.
Disruptive now reduces your Caster Level, and Destroyer of Magic is removed and Spellbreaker now is Pierce Magical Concealment + a nerfed version of Pierce Magical Protection (doesn't dispel now).
Add Evasion to the possible "no half effect" saves, and removed the capstone of immunity. Too much, I think.
I need to think in a ability to rally your allies, but that will have to wait.
Destructive could be "hardness up to x" is ignored, but above that is not ignored at all, kinda like adamantine. Ignoring any amount of hardness is pretty Eesh. Ignoring all DR is fine...but I'd just say reduces the hardness of all objects by 20 as a capstone and call it a day. That will basically take out anything softer then adamantine, and still weaken really strong stuff.
Dispelling with Pierce Magical Prot is so niche that you should keep it. You may want to make it an actual dispel 'attempt' instead of auto-dispel, increased by the enhancement bonus of his weapon, however.
Just add Weapon Mastery to the class Weapon Training and be done with it. Move weapon training to level 1 so the fighter gets a combat bonus at level 1. Maybe just +1 damage, Weapon Training 0, and have the Weapon Mastery be the main effect. And more weapon groups isn't going to overpower the fighter at all.
I would restrict the ability to parry blows to 1/round, like Arrow Deflection and Crane Wing. It gets VERY overpowered quickly, otherwise.
Sentinel should scale back to -2+Weapon Training, so it tops out at -6.
You need to disassociate Second Wind from CLW and magic entirely, esp if you want to keep it Extraordinary. Pick a different mechanic.
I personally use Fighter Level + Fort Save, converts to Non-Lethal damage.
Then, as it auto scales, they also heal Non-Lethal damage more quickly. It goes to 1 pt/min, 1/rd, then 3/rd, then 10/rd.
But it's never an 'instant cure', because it doesn't fit the flavor.
As an alternative, gain fast healing for rds = Fort save. Then scale the fast healing for 1, 2, 3 etc pts/rd as they level. I do prefer the convert to non-lethal mechanic myself, however, and straight fast healing still feels too magical, but that's for you to decide. Converting to non-lethal is more like a 'movie injury', i.e. 'Oh, it wasn't as bad as it seemed.' Straight up fast healing is going to be more like Wolverine.
'Mettle' has always included both Fort and Will because partial and half saves are so rare for them, FYI. realistically, poison and maybe channels are the main things you might run across over an entire career.
I actually liked the Immunity feature for one saving throw as a capstone, i.e. you always make the save. Definitely an 18th level
ability!
alternatively, if you want to keep them separate, add another feature. If a spell does not normally allow a saving throw, you get a normal saving throw instead. (i.e. Enervation, Geas, etc...very niche, but nice!)
it would be really nice because then you could make a Reflex save against touch spells and rays, for instance.
==Aelryinth
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Hmmm. For rallying allies, I'd say make it... let's say a 30' radius that centers on (and moves with) you the fighter. Allies within this burst when you start the rally immediately convert 1d10 + Con mod damage to nonlethal damage. Allies that start their turn within your rally can do one of the following effects:
- Gain a morale bonus on weapon attack/damage rolls equal to your Weapon Training bonus. (Use the best bonus.)
- Gain an extra 10' bonus to land speed.
- Gain a dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to your Armor Training bonus . (This bonus goes away when your ally is attacked, regardless of success.)
Allies that end their turn within your rally burst can make a new saving throw against one ongoing effect they are suffering from (except for diseases and poisons.)
Your rally lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Bravery bonus.
Bump! Another round of changes.
I'm thinkin on let the "commander" abilities to stay with the Cavalier, and now looks tempting to create a pool of resources of the Fighter to keep track of the ability uses. My group will not use the Stamina system, but I'm thinking in naming the pool "Focus" to avoid misunderstanding.
Ok, double post, but based in some suggestions by Snorb, now the Fighter can rally his allies!
Please check the doc and gimme your input! I've tried to not make change in numbers, but in options and versatility.
Thanks for everyone that helped.