Duelist Precise Strike vs. Swashbuckler Precise Strike

[Yiroep]

Duelist Precise Strike wrote:

Precise Strike (Ex): A duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding her duelist level to her damage roll.

When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield. A duelist's precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also immune to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike.

Swashbuckler Precise Strike wrote:

Precise Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler. She can even use this ability with thrown light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, so long as the target is within 30 feet of her. Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is immune to the additional damage granted by precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from the additional damage of a precise strike. This additional damage is precision damage, and isn't multiplied on a critical hit.

So, the verbiage here is very different between the two classes. A few questions:

1. Does this mean the duelist can't use precise strike on undead? (Duelist: "A duelist's precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies") Is this just a holdover from 3.5?

2. Is the duelist's precise strike damage multiplied on a critical hit? (Swashbuckler: "This additional damage is precision damage, and isn't multiplied on a critical hit.")

3. Can a duelist use precise strike with throwing weapons? (Swashbuckler: "She can even use this ability with thrown light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, so long as the target is within 30 feet of her.")

4. Does a duelist's precise strike work on a creature immune to sneak attack but not critical hits? (Duelist: "Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also immune to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike.") (I can't think of any creatures who fall into this category, though)

I have a feeling a lot of the duelist verbiage is old and carried over from the 3.5 edition.

(Side note: I will be playing a Duelist in PFS)

[mplindustries]

1) No, it must be living (because Duelist sucks and is a hold over from 3.5)

2) No, i is still precision damage, which is not multiplied -- this might be contentious, though. You are likely to get few who would say it does multiply, but the RAI here is definitely not multiplying and I suspect the majority of PFS GMs will say it will not multiply.

3) Yes, as long as the thrown weapons are light or one-handed piercing weapons. There's also no range limitation, so, if you can throw it 100', you can apparently precise strike it.

4) As far as I am aware, there is no creature like that, so, the question is irrelevant.

Yes, most of the language is directly ported and, well, it's awful. Why are you going to play a Duelist? I can't think of a single thing you'd get from Duelist that you couldn't get better just from being a Swashbuckler except Int to AC, which is hardly worth losing all the other interesting deeds Swashbuckler gets (like parry and riposte, which practically makes your AC irrelevant anyway).

[Yiroep]

mplindustries wrote:

Why are you going to play a Duelist?

Core campaign. Wanted to try to make a dex fighter using it, and honestly the build isn't looking all that bad. It's just precise strike has horrible verbiage and just needed to make sure.

I think I will argue to GMs about point #2 since, comparatively, I get to precise strike on less things and it doesn't say anything about it being precision damage, but I probably won't push on the issue.

Character:

Half-Elf Fighter 6 / Duelist X

Str: 14
Dex: 17
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
(All ability score increases go to Dex)

Traits:
Dangerously Curious, Indomitable Faith

Feats:
(1): Power Attack
(1-F): Weapon Finesse
(1-HE): Skill Focus (Use Magic Device)
(2-F): Weapon Focus (Rapier)
(3): Dodge
(4-F): Weapon Specialization (Rapier)
(5): Mobility
(6-F): Spring Attack
(7): Iron Will
(9): Improved Critical (Rapier)
(10-Duelist): Combat Reflexes
(11): Lunge

Level 1 Sample Stats
Init: +3 (3 dex)
HP: 13
Attacks: Rapier +4 (1d6+2, 18-20/x2), or Power Attack Rapier +3 (1d6+4, 18-20/x2)
CMB: +3 (+5 for disarm/sunder/trip), CMD: 16
AC: 17 (10 base + 4 chain shirt + 3 Dex), Touch: 13
Saves: Fort +4; Reflex +3; Will +2 (+2 vs. enchantment, immune to sleep)

Level 4 Sample Stats
Init: +4 (4 dex)
HP: 40
Attacks: +1 Rapier +10 (1d6+5, 18-20/x2), or Power Attack +1 Rapier +8 (1d6+9, 18-20/x2)
CMB: +6 (+10 for disarm/sunder/trip), CMD: 21
AC: 21 (10 base + 6 mithral breastplate + 4 Dex + 1 Dodge), Touch: 15
Saves: Fort +7; Reflex +6; Will +4 (+2 vs. enchantment, immune to sleep, +1 vs. fear) (Assuming +1 cloak of resist)

Level 8 Sample Stats
Init: +7 (4 dex + 1 belt + 2 duelist)
HP: 74
Attacks: +1 Rapier +16/+11 (1d6+8, 18-20/x2), or Power Attack +1 Rapier +13/+8 (1d6+14, 18-20/x2)
CMB: +10 (+16 for disarm/sunder/trip), CMD: 29 (30 vs. disarm/sunder)
AC: 27 (10 base + 7 (+1) mithral breastplate + 4 Dex + 1 Dodge + 1 Belt + 2 Int + 1 Ring of Prot + 1 Amulet of Nat Armor), Touch: 19
Saves: Fort +10; Reflex +10; Will +9 (+2 vs. enchantment, immune to sleep, +2 vs. fear) (Assuming +2 cloak of resist)

Level 11 Sample Stats
Init: +8 (4 dex + 2 belt + 2 duelist)
HP: 98
Attacks: +3 Rapier +22/+17/+12 (1d6+13, 15-20/x2), or Power Attack +3 Rapier +19/+14/+9 (1d6+19, 15-20/x2)
CMB: +13 (+22 for disarm/sunder/trip), CMD: 35 (36 vs. disarm/sunder)
AC: 33 (10 base + 9 (+3) mithral breastplate + 4 Dex + 1 Dodge + 2 Belt + 3 Int (with headband) + 2 Ring of Prot + 2 Amulet of Nat Armor), Touch: 22
Saves: Fort +13; Reflex +16; Will +12 (+2 vs. enchantment, immune to sleep, +2 vs. fear) (Assuming +4 cloak of resist)

[mplindustries]

I think playing a Dex fighter in Core only is a sucker's game. Obviously, you can do it--the character is pretty much the best it can be. It's just, well, it can't be very good. You really should just petition for the Swashbuckler (edit: forgot this was PFS...I would just try something else).

Or, I guess this is a different issue--why do people want to play core only anyway? The most powerful classes in the game are all in Core (Cleric, Druid, Wizard)--all core does is screw over martial and 6-level caster options.

[Byakko]

1. Yes, the ability specifies such.

2. Debatable. While the name and fluff suggests it is precision damage, it is never actually called out as such.

3. Debatable. This is an often asked rules question which has yet to be answered. The reasoning behind saying "no" is that thrown weapons are not classified as "light" or "one-handed", and that when a melee weapon is thrown it only counts as a thrown weapon and not its original type. People argue this way because the rules get strange once two-handed weapons or certain magic properties are involved.

4. Yes/Debatable. (if you accept the answer to question 2 to be "yes", then this question is moot)