Why is Spirit Summoner not allowed?

[Rycaut]

I may have missed the thread but why is the spirit summoner archetype not allowed?

Is it a power thing (is something about the archetype broken?) or is it a flavor/table variation issue around the modifications to the Eidolon class ability? (That it has to be related to the spirit you choose?)

I ask because it would have been a very appropriate option for one of my characters and I'm curious why it isn't allowed.

[Nefreet]

We can only guess.

Campaign Leadership has very rarely explained why something gets banned. Mostly only in the cases of an option being obviously evil.

I wanted that archetype for one of my characters as well. If I may make a suggestion, wait for the Spiritualist to be released this summer. It has very much the same feel.

[Rei]

It's probably the flavor/table variation issue and wanting to avoid half-hour arguments over whether or not an evolution fits a spirit through some loophole or not.

[LazarX]

Nefreet wrote:

We can only guess.

Campaign Leadership has very rarely explained why something gets banned. Mostly only in the cases of an option being obviously evil.

That's far from the only reason. Frequently they want certain things to be rare, and opening them up to general PC use defeats the purpose. Certain combinations and options will sometimes be made available through semi-rare or unique boons such as the goblin, damphir, and android boons auctioned for charity at the Big Three cons. Other less rare boons are given as prizes at smaller conventions such as Mepacon or Dreamation.

[Jeffrey Fox]

I don't know for sure but...

Quote:

The eidolon’s form and abilities must be appropriate to his chosen spirit, at the GM’s discretion

Is a huge problem in organized play. Every GM at every table the player sits at would have to judge whether that eidolon fits that GM's opinion of the chosen spirit. And since limiting the eidolon to only things that are like the chosen spirit is a type of balancing factor on the archetype you can't leave that to player discretion.

It would make a pretty cool chronicle boon that could open up specific build options.

[Pirate Rob]

Reasons things are now allowed in PFS:

1: Take too much time/GM input
2: Wealth imbalance
3: Evil
4: Held back for chronicle access
5: Too powerful
5: Campaign flavor

While I'm not in charge of the campaign, they've taken to not answering this sort of question, as doing so only then encourages people to arguing details.

On several occasions in the past Mike Brock has had his mind changed by thoughtful and concise arguments. If you really think it should be allowed, put together a sensible argument and start a thread.

My guess the issue is #1:
"The eidolon's form and abilities must be appropriate to his chosen spirit, at the GM's discretion"

Either you move from table to table and your GM rules spends time ruling your eidolon legal or illegal, or campaign leadership has to spend a lot of time coming up with an exhaustive list of what forms and abilities are appropriate to which spirits.

[Rycaut]

I'm guessing that's the reason - but I think it is unfortunate as it is one of the only ways to get the very interesting Spirit stuff on a CHR caster (the Oracle Spirit Guide is another but for my character the Summoner would actually fit better - he's already an urban barbarian with the lesser spirit totem so I was looking for a CHA based caster means of continuing his very "tied to the spirits" theme.

(which actually is my big issue with the Shaman - given that it supposed be from the Oracle and the Witch making it a WIS based caster really doesn't feel right to me - didn't make sense to me in the play test and doesn't make sense to me in the final book - I think it probably should have been a CHA based caster as that feels more in keeping with the nature of brokering relationships with multiple spirits (which seems flavored most like a CHA class than a WIS class to me)

The other issue I see is that matching the eidolons to the spirits is actually non-obvious as many of the spirits are pretty amorphous (unlike say the Hunger's Animal Focus which is much more clearly tied to a physical form)

[Nefreet]

LazarX wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

We can only guess.

Campaign Leadership has very rarely explained why something gets banned. Mostly only in the cases of an option being obviously evil.

That's far from the only reason. Frequently they want certain things to be rare, and opening them up to general PC use defeats the purpose. Certain combinations and options will sometimes be made available through semi-rare or unique boons such as the goblin, damphir, and android boons auctioned for charity at the Big Three cons. Other less rare boons are given as prizes at smaller conventions such as Mepacon or Dreamation.

Reading comprehension fail.

I didn't say "the only reason stuff gets banned is because it's evil".

I said "the only times Campaign Leadership has explained why something was banned, is because that thing was evil".

Huge difference.

They do not have a history of explaining other reasons. Which is understandable, because doing so opens the door for unwanted debate, and eats up their valuable time defending their decisions from upset posters.

It's much more tactical to just remain silent on the issue.

Hence why "We can only guess" as to why this was banned.

[Andreas Forster]

My first thought on the ban was that it might be because it replaces "Summon Monster" with the shaman's spirit. So instead of either having his eidolon active or summoning other creatures, the Spirit Summoner has his eidolon active and can use his spirit.

[Jason Wu]

It was too close to Angel Summoner. <nod>

[BigNorseWolf]

Jason Wu wrote:

It was too close to Angel Summoner. <nod>

That poor rogue....

*ow ow ow ow ow ow ow* ok I deserved that *ow ow ow ow ow* watch the tail *ow ow ow ow*

[Rycaut]

but notably the "spirit" class feature of the Shaman is just like a witch's patron or a number of other class features - it doesn't have any in game manifestations - just some spells gained and abilities granted at particular levels.

(the Shaman "Sprit Animal" class feature is the one that grants a familiar like creature)

The Spirit Summoner actually gives up a lot of stuff that causes headaches (the summoners usual long duration summon monster ability in favor of a less table breaking set of mostly self-buffs)

[SCPRedMage]

Leadership will likely never say why, but if I had to venture a guess, it's because it's too open to the dreaded Table Variation. Exactly what makes an evolution "appropriate" to a spirit is pretty much guaranteed to vary from GM to GM, meaning whether or not the GM considers your eidolon "legal" is going to be unpredictable.

[Andreas Forster]

Rycaut wrote:

but notably the "spirit" class feature of the Shaman is just like a witch's patron or a number of other class features - it doesn't have any in game manifestations - just some spells gained and abilities granted at particular levels.

Those abilities is what makes the spirit more than a witch's patron. Even the 1st level ones can be quite useful, like the Life spirit's Channel Positive Energy, or the Battle spirit's bonus to attack and damage. The Spirit Summoner gains that ability while still having his eidolon run around (and probably benefit from the spirit ability).

Also, I agree that the eidolon having to be "appropriate to the spirit's theme" would cause a lot of table variation.

[Rycaut]

personally I think it is a pretty interesting and flavorful archetype - unfortunately not available for my PFS character for whom it would be a really good and flavorful fit (he's an Urban Barbarian with the Lesser Spirit Totem rage power - since he has a high CHA Summoner was an option I was exploring - and the idea of one that tied into the spirits fit him really well. And as a player though I know summoning is really powerful it isn't the primary thing I wanted to focus on for him so I was okay with the tradeoffs (and I do think they are pretty significant - yes spirit abilities are good - but summons that last for minutes at a time from early levels and take a standard action are really powerful as well.

but yes the table variation over the Eidolon builds is certainly possible (though few GM's myself included really study how eidolon's are built since they are pretty complex.