Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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I have had this come up several times, so I want to clarify my understanding of it and see what ya all think.
When determining sub-tier, only the characters of the players are counted (and number of players is those with characters) and Pre-Gens levels are used according to what Tier is being played. This is my understanding of it.
For example, in a 1-5, if there is 6 players, but only 4 have characters made, those four determine the sub-tier and the Pre Gens levels are determined by the tier ran. (1st level for 1-2 tier; 4th level for 4-5 tier)
So the four players would have character levels of 3-4-2-1 ... which equals 10. Divided by 4 that is 2.5. Closest whole number is 3.
This means playing 4-5 tier in older scenarios, making the other two pre gens level 4.
If a player changes characters and the 4th level changes to a 2nd, then the number is now 8, divided by 4 is 2. This would change the tier to 1-2 tier, and the pre gens would now be 1st level.
I have been questioned about this recently and would like your opinion.
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I have had this come up several times, so I want to clarify my understanding of it and see what ya all think.
When determining sub-tier, only the characters of the players are counted (and number of players is those with characters) and Pre-Gens levels are used according to what Tier is being played. This is my understanding of it.
For example, in a 1-5, if there is 6 players, but only 4 have characters made, those four determine the sub-tier and the Pre Gens levels are determined by the tier ran. (1st level for 1-2 tier; 4th level for 4-5 tier)
So the four players would have character levels of 3-4-2-1 ... which equals 10. Divided by 4 that is 2.5. Closest whole number is 3.
This means playing 4-5 tier in older scenarios, making the other two pre gens level 4.If a player changes characters and the 4th level changes to a 2nd, then the number is now 8, divided by 4 is 2. This would change the tier to 1-2 tier, and the pre gens would now be 1st level.
thaX:
If the APL comes out to 2.5, the group can decide to play high or low tier.
If you are exactly at
0.5, let the group decide which subtier they wish to play.
But, while I agree with BNW that throwing a level 4 pre-gen in a low subtier 1-2 doesn't seem right, I would be guided by this part of the guide:
Divide the total number of character levels by the number of characters in the party.
To me, that suggests that you also count the levels of the pre-gens when determining APL. A level 4 pre-gen is, indeed, a valid character for a subtier 1-2 game (presuming the scenario was Tier 1-5, of course - it would not be valid for a Tier 1-2 game, like The Confirmation.)
So, in your example, you would actually have a 6 person table. You would count all of the character levels, and figure accordingly.
For modules and Adventure Path content below 9th level,if you do not have a character in the correct level range,you may use a Pathfinder Society pregenerated character...
So, in your example, the level range is 1-5, being played in Subtier 1-2, but a level 4 pre-gen is still in the correct level range. Honestly, though, if a person can show up with a level 4 character to a 1-5 table (even at subtier 1-2), then a player should be able to play with a level 4 pre-gen.
At least, that's how I read those sections together. Though, I will candidly admit that I am intrigued by this other way of doing it.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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So, in your example, the level range is 1-5, being played in Subtier 1-2, but a level 4 pre-gen is still in the correct level range. Honestly, though, if a person can show up with a level 4 character to a 1-5 table (even at subtier 1-2), then a player should be able to play with a level 4 pre-gen.
But in that interpretation, someone could choose to play a level 4 pregen in a subtier 1-2 game to make it a cakewalk, and prevent the other characters from being able to shine. Or alternatively play a level 1 pregen in a subtier 4-5 to score out-of-tier gold for their first-level PC while assuming no risk, but also being more of a liability than an asset to the group. I think those are the kind of situations we want to avoid.
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So, in your example, the level range is 1-5, being played in Subtier 1-2, but a level 4 pre-gen is still in the correct level range. Honestly, though, if a person can show up with a level 4 character to a 1-5 table (even at subtier 1-2), then a player should be able to play with a level 4 pre-gen.But in that interpretation, someone could choose to play a level 4 pregen in a subtier 1-2 game to make it a cakewalk, and prevent the other characters from being able to shine. Or alternatively play a level 1 pregen in a subtier 4-5 to score out-of-tier gold for their first-level PC while assuming no risk, but also being more of a liability than an asset to the group. I think those are the kind of situations we want to avoid.
Sure, you and I agree on that - but it is permissible, I think, as the rule is written. I mean, I think if a GM wants to ask the person to play the pre-gen that is more closely within the subtier being played (as opposed to being in the level range/tier) in that instance, I think that's fine.
But, as the rule is currently written, I think it's within the rule. Fortunately, I haven't really seen any abuse of this, so I'm not sure it's a major problem.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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My take is the same as Seth's above.
While there's some possibility for abuse, I haven't seen it happen yet. Also, it can be Used For Good.
A few weeks back we sat down to play Frostfur Captives with a party of Rogue 2, Paladin 4, Investigator 3, Cleric 2 and 2x Pregen 1. After some looking around we said "let's make this more interesting" and switched to the level 4 pregens instead, and played high tier.
It worked out quite well. I think if we'd used the low-tier pregens then the whole thing would've been way too easy.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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I believe the newer writing of the guide has it so that the group must play up for the older seasons since there is a level 4 in the group. If there is no character in the upper tier level, I believe that the choice of up or down can be made.
What I always understood is that the pregens are determined by Tier played, which is why I didn't count them in the tier determination.
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So, in your example, the level range is 1-5, being played in Subtier 1-2, but a level 4 pre-gen is still in the correct level range. Honestly, though, if a person can show up with a level 4 character to a 1-5 table (even at subtier 1-2), then a player should be able to play with a level 4 pre-gen.But in that interpretation, someone could choose to play a level 4 pregen in a subtier 1-2 game to make it a cakewalk, and prevent the other characters from being able to shine. Or alternatively play a level 1 pregen in a subtier 4-5 to score out-of-tier gold for their first-level PC while assuming no risk, but also being more of a liability than an asset to the group. I think those are the kind of situations we want to avoid.
Just tell them they need to play the one for the appropriate subtier, cause what you are suggesting someone might do sounds pretty close to breaking the Dont Be a Jerk Rule to me.
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I believe the newer writing of the guide has it so that the group must play up for the older seasons since there is a level 4 in the group. If there is no character in the upper tier level, I believe that the choice of up or down can be made.
Your example had the APL at 2.5 exactly. When you end up at x.5, the table gets to choose whether to round up or down to figure for APL. So, in your case, the APL is either 2 or 3, table's choice. If they choose APL 3, then yes they have to play up since there are 6 people and there is at least one person in the subtier.
What I always understood is that the pregens are determined by Tier played, which is why I didn't count them in the tier determination.
This is how I do it as well, but the guide is open to multiple interpretations. It depends on what you believe "level-appropriate" means to you.
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Pregen must be appropriate to the sub tier played. No level 4 in a 1-2 or level 7 in a 3-4. None of that shenanigans.
I'm not challenging you, Andrew, but am asking where I might a citation for this? That's not how I read the section yesterday (or, rather, that explicit language isn't there.)
I agree, on principle, that it seems more appropriate to do it that way, sure.
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It's in the general rules for tiering tables. Put it this way, there is no rule that says that pre-gens are treated any differently than player characters when it says which tiers are appropriate to them. So you follow the normal rules for player characters with them.Pregen must be appropriate to the sub tier played. No level 4 in a 1-2 or level 7 in a 3-4. None of that shenanigans.I'm not challenging you, Andrew, but am asking where I might a citation for this? That's not how I read the section yesterday (or, rather, that explicit language isn't there.)
I agree, on principle, that it seems more appropriate to do it that way, sure.
Alright, sure - but a level 4 character can play in a subtier 1-2 game, correct, provided the overall scenario is levels 1-5? Is that not correct? Sure, they couldn't play a level 4 character in a level 1 or a level 1-2 scenario, but for a scenario that has multiple subtiers (a level 1-5 would be subtiers 1-2 and 4-5), they could play in that, correct?
So, if I am running Library of the Lion (Level 1-5) and we are playing Subtier 1-2, a level 4 character can play in that game, correct?
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I have had this come up several times, so I want to clarify my understanding of it and see what ya all think.
When determining sub-tier, only the characters of the players are counted (and number of players is those with characters) and Pre-Gens levels are used according to what Tier is being played. This is my understanding of it.
For example, in a 1-5, if there is 6 players, but only 4 have characters made, those four determine the sub-tier and the Pre Gens levels are determined by the tier ran. (1st level for 1-2 tier; 4th level for 4-5 tier)
** spoiler omitted **
I have been questioned about this recently and would like your opinion.
If Stumpy is playing a 4th level cleric. It's irrelevant whether he's playing Danar the Strict of his own creation or Pre-Gen Kyra. You calculate the levels and APL as normal rounding up to the nearest tier.
So if the calculation puts your group at Tier 2.4 which rounds up to 3, you're playing at the 4-5 tier with the 4 person adjustment.
Umm...2.4 rounds down to 2, so subtier 1-2. You have to be higher than x.5 to automatically round up.
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It's in the general rules for tiering tables. Put it this way, there is no rule that says that pre-gens are treated any differently than player characters when it says which tiers are appropriate to them. So you follow the normal rules for player characters with them.Pregen must be appropriate to the sub tier played. No level 4 in a 1-2 or level 7 in a 3-4. None of that shenanigans.I'm not challenging you, Andrew, but am asking where I might a citation for this? That's not how I read the section yesterday (or, rather, that explicit language isn't there.)
I agree, on principle, that it seems more appropriate to do it that way, sure.
Alright, sure - but a level 4 character can play in a subtier 1-2 game, correct, provided the overall scenario is levels 1-5? Is that not correct? Sure, they couldn't play a level 4 character in a level 1 or a level 1-2 scenario, but for a scenario that has multiple subtiers (a level 1-5 would be subtiers 1-2 and 4-5), they could play in that, correct?
So, if I am running Library of the Lion (Level 1-5) and we are playing Subtier 1-2, a level 4 character can play in that game, correct?
As mentioned above, it's not nailed down in the Guide. It says "level-appropriate" for the pre-gens. Some rule it means appropriate to sub-tier at the table, others that it means appropriate to the overall tier of the scenario. Either way works as it stands now.
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So, if I am running Library of the Lion (Level 1-5) and we are playing Subtier 1-2, a level 4 character can play in that game, correct?Yes. you essentially play up the table to tier 4-5 with the 4 person adjustment, assuming the group succeeds, he gets the Tier 4-5 gold, everyone else gets the out of tier gold.
Even if every one of the minimum 3 other players is level 1, the level 4 bumps the table to the higher tier.
This is 100% FALSE.
In the example given, that would be an APL of (7/4) 1.75. You would be solidly in the subtier 1-2 for that scenario.
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It's in the general rules for tiering tables. Put it this way, there is no rule that says that pre-gens are treated any differently than player characters when it says which tiers are appropriate to them. So you follow the normal rules for player characters with them.Pregen must be appropriate to the sub tier played. No level 4 in a 1-2 or level 7 in a 3-4. None of that shenanigans.I'm not challenging you, Andrew, but am asking where I might a citation for this? That's not how I read the section yesterday (or, rather, that explicit language isn't there.)
I agree, on principle, that it seems more appropriate to do it that way, sure.
Alright, sure - but a level 4 character can play in a subtier 1-2 game, correct, provided the overall scenario is levels 1-5? Is that not correct? Sure, they couldn't play a level 4 character in a level 1 or a level 1-2 scenario, but for a scenario that has multiple subtiers (a level 1-5 would be subtiers 1-2 and 4-5), they could play in that, correct?
So, if I am running Library of the Lion (Level 1-5) and we are playing Subtier 1-2, a level 4 character can play in that game, correct?
Being able to play and being appropriate for the sub-tier are two different things.
That's why if you aren't appropriate for the sub-tier, its called out-of-sub-tier.
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That's why if you aren't appropriate for the sub-tier, its called out-of-sub-tier.But the passage I quoted doesn't say "appropriate sub-tier." It says, in part "if you don't have a character in the appropriate level range..." Not subtier. Those aren't the same thing.
Common sense says you play in sub tier with pregens.
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Common sense says you play in sub tier with pregens.
That's why if you aren't appropriate for the sub-tier, its called out-of-sub-tier.But the passage I quoted doesn't say "appropriate sub-tier." It says, in part "if you don't have a character in the appropriate level range..." Not subtier. Those aren't the same thing.
Well, be thankful that you've been blessed with common sense then, Andy, because I'm not the only one reading the rule this way, it seems.
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I went too far to the extreme. If the other players are level 1, the fourth player must then play either the level 1 pre-gen, an appropriate character for the tier, or a new character.
So, if I am running Library of the Lion (Level 1-5) and we are playing Subtier 1-2, a level 4 character can play in that game, correct?Yes. you essentially play up the table to tier 4-5 with the 4 person adjustment, assuming the group succeeds, he gets the Tier 4-5 gold, everyone else gets the out of tier gold.
Even if every one of the minimum 3 other players is level 1, the level 4 bumps the table to the higher tier.
This is 100% FALSE.
In the example given, that would be an APL of (7/4) 1.75. You would be solidly in the subtier 1-2 for that scenario.
No, that's still wrong. If A, B, and C are all playng level one characters in a 1-5, D can play any of his characters that could otherwise play in a 1-5. The only time a player can be restricted from playing one of his characters is if that character is more than one subtier away from the APL. For example: A, B, C, and D are playing a 1-7, which has subtiers 1-2, 3-4, and 6-7. A, B, and C are playing level ones, so D can only play a character of levels 1-4.
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Well, be thankful that you've been blessed with common sense then, Andy, because I'm not the only one reading the rule this way, it seems.Common sense says you play in sub tier with pregens.
That's why if you aren't appropriate for the sub-tier, its called out-of-sub-tier.But the passage I quoted doesn't say "appropriate sub-tier." It says, in part "if you don't have a character in the appropriate level range..." Not subtier. Those aren't the same thing.
Whether the language is explicit or not, at some point we need to use common sense.
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No, that's still wrong. If A, B, and C are all playng level one characters in a 1-5, D can play any of his characters that could otherwise play in a 1-5. The only time a player can be restricted from playing one of his characters is if that character is more than one subtier away from the APL. For example: A, B, C, and D are playing a 1-7, which has subtiers 1-2, 3-4, and 6-7. A, B, and C are playing level ones, so D can only play a character of levels 1-4.
This is how I understood the rule, and I saw nothing different about pre-generated characters.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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For the stickler of the .5, the newer guide does say that the number must be rounded to the nearest whole number. When in mid tier, like 3 in a 1-5, it is only when all the characters are not a level in the upper tier that the choice to play up or down is given.
This is/was a change from the previous season, and the rewording somehow changed the inferance about the Pre Gens, as I believe it was clearer that they were not a part of the Tier determination. (For a game with all Pre-Gens, I would guess that the group would play in the lower tier)
I shall keep the Pre Gens out of calculations for now, but will advise an either/or approach to those that ask in the future.
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For the stickler of the .5, the newer guide does say that the number must be rounded to the nearest whole number. When in mid tier, like 3 in a 1-5, it is only when all the characters are not a level in the upper tier that the choice to play up or down is given.
And which is closer to 2.5...2 or 3? Mike's post to grant the table the choice in this instance is still valid.
This is/was a change from the previous season, and the rewording somehow changed the inferance about the Pre Gens, as I believe it was clearer that they were not a part of the Tier determination. (For a game with all Pre-Gens, I would guess that the group would play in the lower tier)
If it's a table of nothing but pre-gens, no one really has any skin in the game as it were, so whichever one the table prefers would work (but I'd have them all use the same level of pre-gen)
I shall keep the Pre Gens out of calculations for now, but will advise an either/or approach to those that ask in the future.
Sounds like a plan!
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For the stickler of the .5, the newer guide does say that the number must be rounded to the nearest whole number. When in mid tier, like 3 in a 1-5, it is only when all the characters are not a level in the upper tier that the choice to play up or down is given.
This is/was a change from the previous season, and the rewording somehow changed the inferance about the Pre Gens, as I believe it was clearer that they were not a part of the Tier determination. (For a game with all Pre-Gens, I would guess that the group would play in the lower tier)
I shall keep the Pre Gens out of calculations for now, but will advise an either/or approach to those that ask in the future.
This is what the guide (page 32) says to do if the APL comes out to .5:
"If you are exactly at 0.5, let the group decide which subtier they wish to play."
So, no, you don't round to the nearest whole number in that case - if it is .5, the group decides which subtier to play. This is in the latest version of the guide (6.0), which came out last August.
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Here is an odd corner case to add to the debate. You have 5 players playing a 3-7 mod. There is 1 3rd level, one 7th level and 3 people who want to play pregens. If you do not factor in the pregens into the level calculations, then the APL for the party is 5 which means you are supposed to play up with the 4 person adjustment. Which would mean that the pregen players would have to play level 7 pregens. Which would normally calculate the table out to an APL of 6.2. Which would mean you are supposed to play up without the 4 person adjustment.
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you figure the pregen levels into the total APL.
If you have a mix mash of levels, then whatever level the Pregen(s) end up being will likely determine the final APL and what sub-tier and whether any adjustment is made.
But if all regular characters fit into one or the other subtier, then the pregen should match that sub-tier as best as possible.
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Here is an odd corner case to add to the debate. You have 5 players playing a 3-7 mod. There is 1 3rd level, one 7th level and 3 people who want to play pregens. If you do not factor in the pregens into the level calculations, then the APL for the party is 5 which means you are supposed to play up with the 4 person adjustment. Which would mean that the pregen players would have to play level 7 pregens. Which would normally calculate the table out to an APL of 6.2. Which would mean you are supposed to play up without the 4 person adjustment.
I hate to throw around the phrase "common sense" but this situation really calls for friendly chit-chat. "Hey, Mrs. Level 3, would you be comfortable in the 6-7 subtier? How about you, Miss Level 7, is playing down OK?" If either is acceptable hand out the appropriate leveled pregens. (You do the calculations with the pregens included.) If both are acceptable let the players decide or just roll a die. If neither is acceptable, ask if the 3 or the 7 would be willing to play a pregen for a new 1st level character chronicle. In the rare case that no accommodation can be reached, ask the pregen players to weigh in.
99.5% of the time you're going to get a equable solution. If you still have players complaining you are going to have a miserable table no matter what.
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Here is an odd corner case to add to the debate. You have 5 players playing a 3-7 mod. There is 1 3rd level, one 7th level and 3 people who want to play pregens. If you do not factor in the pregens into the level calculations, then the APL for the party is 5 which means you are supposed to play up with the 4 person adjustment. Which would mean that the pregen players would have to play level 7 pregens. Which would normally calculate the table out to an APL of 6.2. Which would mean you are supposed to play up without the 4 person adjustment.
This is what I do.
Step1: Calculate subtier without the pregens.
Step2: Assign appropriate levels of pregens.
Step3: Recalculate subtier including pregens.
So, in your example, 3 and 7 make APL = 5. As 5 is out of subtier, we use the table size and season to determine subtier. 5 players = Tier 3-4, unadjusted.
So the pregens are level 4 pregens.
Recalculating, including three level 4 pregens: 3+4+4+4+7 = 22, divided by 5 = 4.4
Subtier is 3-4.
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This is/was a change from the previous season, and the rewording somehow changed the inferance about the Pre Gens, as I believe it was clearer that they were not a part of the Tier determination. (For a game with all Pre-Gens, I would guess that the group would play in the lower tier)
Do you have the language from an older guide on this? I don't think it has changed in my (admittedly fallible) memory for several iterations of the guide.
In order to determine which subtier a mixed-level group of PCs must play in, calculate the group’s average party level (APL). Divide the total number of character levels by the number of characters in the party. You should always round to the nearest whole number. If you are exactly at 0.5, let the group decide which subtier they wish to play.
In order to determine which subtier a mixed-level group of PCs must play in, calculate the group’s average party level (APL). Divide the total number of character levels by the number of characters in the party. You should always round to the nearest whole number.
Nothing in the verbiage I can see that says not to include the pregens at any point in the calculation. I know that the calc sometimes need to be done in a running fashion, as people change their chosen PC or such.
Only change from 5 to 6 is adding the let the group decide line.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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In the guide...
---paste---
Starting with Season 4, scenarios are designed for six
characters and contain instructions on how to adjust the
scenario for four-character parties. When the APL of a table
is between two subtiers (like APL 3 for a Tier 1–5 scenario),
a party of four characters must play the lower tier without
any adjustments for party size. A party of five to seven
characters whose APL is between two subtiers must play
the higher tier with the four-character adjustment.
For scenarios written in Seasons 0 to 3, when the APL is
in between subtiers, a party of six or seven characters must
play the higher subtier. Parties with four or five characters
must play the lower subtier. In the fringe case where there
are no players that are high enough to have reached the
subtier level (such as a party of six 3rd level characters),
the group may decide to play down to the lower subtier.
---end paste---
So my example would mean, when the total player count is including the Pre Gens, the players can choose to have that number be a 2 or a 3. Either choice would have the 5 players playing down anyway in an older scenario.
I am looking at the Pre Gen and trying to see where it mentions them. It does not mention pre-gens at all in the determining subtier chapter, but it only mentions being level appropiate in the Module/AP section of the guide. It has been a given for a long time that Pre Gens must be within the tier played in the session. My real reasoning on not including the Pregens in calulation of APL is the fact that it is not known what level they are until the calulation is actually done.
As I said, I shall do it this way and let others do it as they see fit, until otherwise advised.
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We had a game where we expected 4 level 10 characters to show up, but one dropped out and we couldn't find another player, so used a level 7 pregen.
It didn't occur to us until the end when we were receiving our rewards that adding a level 7 pregen into the mix brought the APL to just above 9. It was a season 1 scenario, so that meant playing down. We wouldn't have opted to do that if we'd realised early, but it'd be good to know if we could exclude the pregen where that credit was going to waste anyway.
Is this the kind of thing we can just ask the GM to do? That seems to be the cleanest option in all cases, but the wording in the guide doesn't seem to reflect that.
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I see nothing banning you from selecting either level range appropriate pregen as the table prefers. I prefer to make sure the pregen matches the sub-tier, but if the pregen can determine the sub-tier I will consider the wishes of the party.
If you have a table of level 1s or 2s, common sense says you don't allow a level 4 pregen to play at that table.
I know that the guide to organized play doesn't specifically spell that out. But frankly it shouldn't have to. Common sense says you use the appropriate leveled pregen. Which means you try to match the APL of the actual player characters as best you can.
That's how I enforce it at my tables, and how I impress it should be enforced at tables that I play at.
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I see nothing banning you from selecting either level range appropriate pregen as the table prefers. I prefer to make sure the pregen matches the sub-tier, but if the pregen can determine the sub-tier I will consider the wishes of the party.
This has been my experience as a player and GM.
Though I certainly see the argument that the pre-gen be tier appropriate as valid, and wouldn't complain or argue the decision/logic. It is also an impossible standard to actually maintain unless they add 10th level pre-gens. (A table of all high tier players except 1 who needs to play a pre-gen in a 7-11 (which hopefully is uncommon but can happen), or even the one I played in just yesterday 4 level 9's, a level 11, and a pre-gen)
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What about a pregen to make a 4 player table that's not receiving any credit but pulling high tier characters into lower tier?
Doesn't seem right to just say "too bad"?
I don't see how this is possible or even achievable based on what I said.
3 level 10's is 30, plus a level 7 pregen is 37, divided by 4 is 9.25 or 9, so you play down at the 6 player adjustment or play up depending on the season. But since there isn't a pregen higher than level 7, this is the only time this happens.
Otherwise, if you are playing at an otherwise 1-2 table, use the level 1 pregen. If you are playing at an otherwise 3-4 or 4-5, use the level 4 pregen.
If you are playing at an otherwise 5-6, 6-7, 8-9 or 10-11, then the level 7 pregen is the appropriate one.
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If you have a table of level 1s or 2s, common sense says you don't allow a level 4 pregen to play at that table.
No, it doesn't. If I want to allow a 4th level pregen in a party of 1s, I do. I've done it with regular PCs, I see no reason not to allow a pregen the same way.
Common sense tells you to do what is fun, and if three 1s and a 4th level pregen is fun, you are welcome to do it.
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Well, it says that the pregen has to be level appropiate in the Mod/AP section, I don't see a reason that this would not be the case in the Scenarios.
Correct. Appropriate "level-range." The level range, for example, of "Library of the Lion" is 1-5, with two subtiers, 1-2 and 4-5. A level 4 pre-gen is level appropriate for play at any subtier for a 1-5 scenario.
"if you don't have a character in the appropriate level range..." is the specific language from the guide.