In our games we are using a Base Defense Bônus equal to 1/2 BAB for every character class, monsters and NPCs and results are being good so far. We just dropped from the game ring of protection deflection bonus and amulet of natural armor AC bônus to keep AC balanced.
Does anybody else is using base defense bônus and would lime to share experiences? With the future release of Pathfinder unchained we are curious to see if there will be a solucion for this issue.
I'm considering using Pure Steam values, but I haven't done so yet. Curious as to what issue you were having with rings of protection and amulets of natural armor. Haven't noticed anything.
Sorry what do you mean with purê steam values? For the rings and amulets the issue was that togegher they can bring character's AC up to +10, but since we already give Base Defense Bonus progression equal to one-half BAB, we thought it would be too much to let rings and amulets AC bonus stack with Base Defense Bonus.
Pure Steam is a third party supplement that includes defense bonus values that look pretty solid. The progression is based off of the armor proficiency of the class rather than BAB, but the progression is still attached to class level.
Not sure I see the issue with rings and amulets, since you can already stack an amulet with armor.
But in our game base Defense bonus stacks with armor, we just dropped magic AC bonus from rings and amulets. I will take a look in Purê Steam, is always good to compare thank you.
In one 3.5 campaign I ran years ago, I had all PCs and monsters add 1/2 BAB to armor, but it didn't stack it with armor. It was more work for me as DM, since I had recalculate everything's AC bonus, but on the plus side the players enjoyed the boost. In the grand scheme of things, it made little impact on how combat played out, except that there were a few more attacks that missed (on both sides), plus a few more ray spells that missed. I did not repeat the experiment in subsequent games.
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I'm justthisfar from ditching traditional AC and using the CMD in its place with armor as DR. Thisclose, mind you.
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I'm justthisfar from ditching traditional AC and using the CMD in its place with armor as DR. Thisclose, mind you.
I like this, but it would definitely be a problem for twf builds and accuracy-over-effect builds. Perhaps have it so DR cannot reduce damage below 1 non-lethal damage.
I had been thinking about using a modified armour-as-DR system, wherein you count the odd numbers as traditional AC and the even as DR (so fullplate provides +5 AC and 4 DR).
How would it be a problem? I'm not being snarky, just honestly curious.
How would it be a problem? I'm not being snarky, just honestly curious.
Compare the damage of two 1st level characters, Brutus the Brute with a big greataxe and 18 str, and Scipus Cornelii with two short swords, mostly built around dex (18) but with a small amount of str (12).
Brutus is doing +5(1d12+6) without any feats, Scipus is doing +3(1d6+1) +3(1d6+0) with two feats (twf, weapon finesse). Brutus is more likely to land a hit. Since DR is applied on each individual hit, if the foe has DR 5/-, then (assuming everyone hits) Brutus is averaging 7.5 damage and Scipus is averaging -0.5 and -1.5.
Perhaps this was fixed by one of the twenty-odd dex to damage with over specific conditions feats, I haven't looked much into the drivel that Paizo has recently produced.
Thanks!
Does anybody else is using base defense bônus and would lime to share experiences? With the future release of Pathfinder unchained we are curious to see if there will be a solucion for this issue.
We have tried these rules for a couple of one shots so far.
I liked how they turn out. NOTE: the dodge bonus is our effective base defense bonus.
... Clearly not, since the restrictions on the two new Dex-to-Damage feats are 1. a one-handed slashing weapon, or a rapier 2. that the weapon is appropriately sized and 3. that the weapon is used in one hand.
Hardly specific conditions. The harder part was slotting the feats together. But really... one doesn't need all of that.
As I said, I have not paid much attention to the recent feats that paizo has published, and "twenty-odd" is clearly hyperbole.
You can do a Str-oriented TWF build. Rangers have been doing that since Core. Or you can do a build that relies on other static damage modifiers for its power. Even Rogues are able to recognize that one. Pitching an intentionally weak build as a problem doesn't really prove much.
Really, all you've explained is a general truism of DR: that it does its job better the more attacks it gets to work against. Expanding the number of enemies that have DR will, yes, naturally devalue TWF builds, natural attack builds, etc. If you're not willing to devalue them... then the DR system isn't the one for you. Allowing them to do one point of damage isn't going to change things except at the absolute lowest levels.
TWF builds are weak in general. The Ranger's ignore prerequisites is the exception to twf sucking, at 18 str (and 2 shortswords) he would average 2.5 and 0.5 damage in the circumstance that I used before. If we add the rogues 1st level sneak attack dice to Scipus, then he's doing an average of 3 and 2, but his attacks are less accurate.
I by no means stated that allowing a minimum of 1 non-lethal damage would fix everything, just that it would make twf and accuracy>effect builds suck less.
Edit: I'm not particularly familiar with this forums syntax.
OK, just read Slashing Grace, so now imagine the rogue example with an additonal +4 to damage on each weapon, but with an additional -2 to attack, or a +3 to damage for no additional penalty to attack.
Brutus with no feats is still doing better, now imagine him with Power Attack and not as a plain Warrior, but a Barbarian.
I agree with Barathos issues about armor as DR.
Just to avoid the derail of this thread, the subject here is using a base defense bonus (bdb) stackable with armor AC bonus. We are NOT using or discussing armor as DR.
Kestral, there are clear benefits in my opinion:
1st - since bdb functions as a kind of dodge bonus, characters will have a better AC against touch attacks;
2nd - since bdb scales in levels and substitute rings and amulets AC bonus, you reduce the BIG SIX problem;
3rd - monsters will have a better AC, making combats last a little longer.
I like using Class Defense Bonus coupled with armor as DR, and I already house-rule to make TWF not suck.
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In our games we are using a Base Defense Bônus equal to 1/2 BAB for every character class, monsters and NPCs and results are being good so far. We just dropped from the game ring of protection deflection bonus and amulet of natural armor AC bônus to keep AC balanced.
Does anybody else is using base defense bônus and would lime to share experiences? With the future release of Pathfinder unchained we are curious to see if there will be a solucion for this issue.
Why would you assign the same base defense bonus to all classes? Why not match full BDB to full BAB classes, 3/4 to 3/4, etc?
Or, if you really want to fix Pathfinder, mix and match BAB and BDB. Give fighters full BDB but paladins only 3/4 to make up for the imbalance between them. Give rogues and monks full BDB to buff them up a bit. Maybe drop barbarians all the way down to 1/2 BDB to represent their berserk recklessness.
Just a thought....