Demoyn
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They took away reach from spiked chain. Step up requires being adjacent. Telekinetic charge requires being adjacent.
So my question is: why do the developers hate reach weapons? Did their parents spank them with reach weapons when they were children? Are they prejudiced? Or do the developers that created step up and telekinetic charge just not understand the game well enough to properly design the rules for it?
The Lion Cleric
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Imagine Step Up when fighting in melee with a greatsword user. All you need to do is to take a 5 foot step every turn away from him. After level 6, you always make more attacks. Spiked Chain was THE weapon to use, because it was reach AND adjacent.
Can't really speak about Telekinetic Charge, but allowing it to work with reach weapons doesn't really make much difference, to be honest.
However, Reach Weapons are almost absolutely better for making attacks of opportunity, for being safe, for Aid Another, Bodyguard feat and stuff like that.
I understand how in real life reach weapon users pretty much (stressing the pretty much part) dominate in a 1v1 situation versus someone with a longsword or an axe, but in real life you don't move on a 5ft grid, and realism is second to enjoyment.
I don't think I have anything to say anymore.
Also, that wasn't a rant, just an honest explanation.
Magda Luckbender
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@OP: I think you misunderstand the developers. Reach weapons are already the most effective weapons in the game. They haven't received additional love because they are already the Primary Battlefield Weapons. For example, the developers have lavished love and attention on Two Weapon Fighting and Dexterity-based combat, in an attempt to make those sub-par combat options viable. This is a good thing, because it creates more options. Especially for those who don't wish to lug around an 8' polearm as they go about their daily business in a city.
Two handed reach weapons remain the standard by which other combat styles are judged. Reach weapons remain superior to all other melee options as general open-space Primary Battlefield Weapons. When something is already the best option it doesn't need extra toys. Note that, as these various other combat styles have received attention from the Developers, they have been careful to keep all these other options inferior to the simplest reach weapon. E.g. The simple Longspear, used well, remains superior [Youtube sparring video: 2 on 1 swordsmen vs spear wielder, spear consistently wins 1 on 2] to all the TWF and Dex-to-damage options out there. The Developers seem to use two handed reach weapons as the pinnacle of melee effectiveness, which nothing else is allowed to supersede. What's the problem?
While it's true that some of the feats exclude reach weapons (e.g. step up), this is not a problem. It's not like the loss of Step Up does anything to prevent reach weapons from being king of the battlefield. Same with the Spiked Chain.
Finally, I'd like to point out that reach weapons have some additional complexity. I.e. they require understanding AoOs and reach tactics. This is probably why not even one iconic carries a reach weapon. This is probably also why there is not even one instance, in all the published Paizo adventures, of a Giant wielding a reach weapon - despite that being obviously the most effective weapon choice for any giant. This is presumably done for game balance, so a pesky dexterous giant with a longspear and Combat Reflexes doesn't massacre an entire party of iconics. We approve of game balance.
Did that answer your complaints?
| Malwing |
OP never said they were suboptimal. OP was annoyed at some of the minor downgrades and feat exclusions.
Somehow I interpreted " why do the developers hate reach weapons?" and " Did their parents spank them with reach weapons when they were children?" as saying that reach weapons suck or are heavily nerfed. Is it like when people say "X ruined my childhood" but don't mean that George Lucas personally time traveled and molested them when they were 5 in revenge for giving bad word of mouth for The Phantom Menace?
| Chris Lambertz Paizo Glitterati Robot |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
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