I saw a self styled 'shadow warrior' Thug Scout 8/ Scarred Rager 1 a little while ago that used Shadow Clone to not die, while using Scout charge sneak attack -> Thug sicken, + Cornugon Smash -> Hurtful -> Shatter defenses; next round goes chop, chop, chop with sneak attacks. Pretty much all resources are going into combat, but it's still a Rogue platform dishing out sneak attack and debuffs rather maliciously, even if it's wearing medium armor and two-handing things.
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Wizard>>>Arcanist
Sorcerer<<<Arcanist (albeit mnemonic vestment/razmiran/paragon surge largely mitigates this)
Cleric>>>Warpriest
Druid>Shaman
Bard roughly equals Skald
Fighter roughly equals Swashbuckler and Brawler
Fighter,Rogue<<<Slayer
Monk(non-archetyped, anyway)<<<Brawler
Ranger<<<Hunter
Barbarian<Bloodrager(without using stuff like beast totem they are about equal)
Paladin<Warpriest
It'd be wiser to compare a Shaman to a more Caster oriented Cleric.
A Ranger isn't exactly comparable to a Hunter. Hunter is more pet focused while Ranger is more character focused.
Bloodrager don't compare to Barbarians who took either Invulnerable Rager or Spell Sunder. Not easily anyways.
Warpriests are nowhere near as good as Paladins are.
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Warpriests are nowhere near as good as Paladins are.
It depends. Warpriests are better against non-evil threats and casting than the paladin. Fervor is certainly better than Lay on Hands. Sacred Weapon and Divine Bond is equal, and Warpriests are able to swift action summon or do other interesting things via blessings that the paladin cannot.
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It depends. Warpriests are better against non-evil threats and casting than the paladin. Fervor is certainly better than Lay on Hands. Sacred Weapon and Divine Bond is equal, and Warpriests are able to swift action summon or do other interesting things via blessings that the paladin cannot.
Warpriests are nowhere near as good as Paladins are.
Divine power looks pretty good on a Paladin no matter what you're fighting. :|
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Divine power looks pretty good on a Paladin no matter what you're fighting. :|It depends. Warpriests are better against non-evil threats and casting than the paladin. Fervor is certainly better than Lay on Hands. Sacred Weapon and Divine Bond is equal, and Warpriests are able to swift action summon or do other interesting things via blessings that the paladin cannot.
Warpriests are nowhere near as good as Paladins are.
Also depends on the archetype. A shining knight paladin can 1-shot just about anything evil and within 3 CR of his level if it's built non-stupidly.
Paladins come with
"Rules legal method for GM to F with you"
aka the paladin's code.
I have had GMs ask me what the rules are for the paladin's code, I respond, "literally any action up to and including breathing can break the paladin's code." As a GM you should just write your own since the code as it is, is functionally useless.
It's... it's really not that hard to follow a paladin code.
Some players handle being lawful good better than others, though. Some players handle trying to be lawful good really, really badly.
@ Ashiel - but the warpriest got it 3 levels earlier, didn't have to spend a feat to get it, and can cast it as a quickened still spell at full caster level as soon as he got it.
Paladins are really damn good, but the warpriest ain't a chump by any stretch.
It's... it's really not that hard to follow a paladin code.
Doesn't matter. The rules let your Paladin lose his powers if he so much as fails a Will Save and in some instances you cannot regain your powers through anything but GM Fiat.
And the Code is interpreted differently by everyone so while you believe you're following the code, the GM can say otherwise.
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It's... it's really not that hard to follow a paladin code.Doesn't matter. The rules let your Paladin lose his powers if he so much as fails a Will Save and in some instances you cannot regain your powers through anything but GM Fiat.
And the Code is interpreted differently by everyone so while you believe you're following the code, the GM can say otherwise.
Humorously a chaotic evil cleric can restore the Paladin's powers.
I suspect that in that case, the problem is probably your GM, not that paladin codes exist.
Though yes, I don't recommend playing paladin if your GM is an idiot.
Humorously a chaotic evil cleric can restore the Paladin's powers.It's... it's really not that hard to follow a paladin code.Doesn't matter. The rules let your Paladin lose his powers if he so much as fails a Will Save and in some instances you cannot regain your powers through anything but GM Fiat.
And the Code is interpreted differently by everyone so while you believe you're following the code, the GM can say otherwise.
I liked Lawful Evil Warpriests of Iomedae back in the playtest.
But yours is way funnier.
Most importantly, you and your GM need to be on the same wavelength with regard to your paladin's code. You need to have a roughly similar understanding of what good and evil are, and how they are dealt with, and where the process of falling begins and ends.
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I suspect that in that case, the problem is probably your GM, not that paladin codes exist.
Though yes, I don't recommend playing paladin if your GM is an idiot.
Well... that's kind've the problem. Either your GM is punishing you hard for minor things (and things that aren't your fault because magic) they're holding you to the code as it's written.
If your GM isn't an idiot, they're not using the code as written.
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Playing a Paladin can be incredibly rewarding, but also incredibly frustrating, entirely because it has a built in self desctuct that the GM can push at will. Druids can wear metal armor, and you can destroy a wizard's spellbook, but the Paladin's fall is something that some GMs revel in. There is a tradition of no-win scenarios, gotchas, and general asshaberdashery. I have played at a table where a paladin fell for daring to use a bow to attack a dragon that was out of melee range doing flyby breath strafing, because and I quote "a bow isn't honorable."
I suspect that in that case, the problem is probably your GM, not that paladin codes exist.
Though yes, I don't recommend playing paladin if your GM is an idiot.
Well... that's kind've the problem. Either your GM is punishing you hard for minor things (and things that aren't your fault because magic) they're holding you to the code as it's written.
If your GM isn't an idiot, they're not using the code as written.
Bingo. The Code as written is awful. Far far too open to vastly differing interpretations.
Playing a Paladin can be incredibly rewarding, but also incredibly frustrating, entirely because it has a built in self desctuct that the GM can push at will. Druids can wear metal armor, and you can destroy a wizard's spellbook, but the Paladin's fall is something that some GMs revel in. There is a tradition of no-win scenarios, gotchas, and general asshaberdashery. I have played at a table where a paladin fell for daring to use a bow to attack a dragon that was out of melee range doing flyby breath strafing, because and I quote "a bow isn't honorable."
Damn. If that happened at a game I was at, whether I was the paladin or not, I'd probably just leave. No good can come of playing with a person like that.
Though yes, I don't recommend playing paladin if your GM is an idiot.
Or we could have a well written code.
It's not fair to blame your GM for interpreting the abyssal tosh that is the paladin's code differently than you.
Crying, "but that was mean!" when the GM was simply applying the rules is immature.
Yes, a GM can reasonably rule that using a bow is dishonorable. They could even rule that letting your rogue ally sneak attack is dishonorable.
The code is toxic, most GMs either rewrite it or hand-wave it. Most players fully expect the code to bite them in the ass one day. Throwing a fit when the code does bite you in the ass is out of the question.
Playing a Paladin can be incredibly rewarding, but also incredibly frustrating, entirely because it has a built in self desctuct that the GM can push at will. Druids can wear metal armor, and you can destroy a wizard's spellbook, but the Paladin's fall is something that some GMs revel in. There is a tradition of no-win scenarios, gotchas, and general asshaberdashery. I have played at a table where a paladin fell for daring to use a bow to attack a dragon that was out of melee range doing flyby breath strafing, because and I quote "a bow isn't honorable."Damn. If that happened at a game I was at, whether I was the paladin or not, I'd probably just leave. No good can come of playing with a person like that.
MR. DM, you mean SOLARS, the HIGHEST ANGEL OF GOODNESS, is DISHONORABLE BECAUSE THEY USE BOWS?
That one of the major LG gods of Pathfinder is NOT ACTUALLY LG BECAUSE HE USES A BOW? (Erastil cocks an eyebrow).
==Aelryinth
Playing a Paladin can be incredibly rewarding, but also incredibly frustrating, entirely because it has a built in self desctuct that the GM can push at will. Druids can wear metal armor, and you can destroy a wizard's spellbook, but the Paladin's fall is something that some GMs revel in. There is a tradition of no-win scenarios, gotchas, and general asshaberdashery. I have played at a table where a paladin fell for daring to use a bow to attack a dragon that was out of melee range doing flyby breath strafing, because and I quote "a bow isn't honorable."Damn. If that happened at a game I was at, whether I was the paladin or not, I'd probably just leave. No good can come of playing with a person like that.MR. DM, you mean SOLARS, the HIGHEST ANGEL OF GOODNESS, is DISHONORABLE BECAUSE THEY USE BOWS?
That one of the major LG gods of Pathfinder is NOT ACTUALLY LG BECAUSE HE USES A BOW? (Erastil cocks an eyebrow).
"Paladins are called to be far more than merely lawful good. The code is not something so easily disregarded because a mere angel does not follow it."
"Paladins are called to be far more than merely lawful good. The code is not something so easily disregarded because a mere angle does not follow it."Playing a Paladin can be incredibly rewarding, but also incredibly frustrating, entirely because it has a built in self desctuct that the GM can push at will. Druids can wear metal armor, and you can destroy a wizard's spellbook, but the Paladin's fall is something that some GMs revel in. There is a tradition of no-win scenarios, gotchas, and general asshaberdashery. I have played at a table where a paladin fell for daring to use a bow to attack a dragon that was out of melee range doing flyby breath strafing, because and I quote "a bow isn't honorable."Damn. If that happened at a game I was at, whether I was the paladin or not, I'd probably just leave. No good can come of playing with a person like that.MR. DM, you mean SOLARS, the HIGHEST ANGEL OF GOODNESS, is DISHONORABLE BECAUSE THEY USE BOWS?
That one of the major LG gods of Pathfinder is NOT ACTUALLY LG BECAUSE HE USES A BOW? (Erastil cocks an eyebrow).
You're being obtuse.
Edit: Pfff. Editing your post ruins my joke! Shame on you.
Let me amend my prior statement: I don't recommend playing paladin if you have a bad GM.
(Seriously, if you're playing a paladin of Erastil, and your GM declared you're dishonorable because you're using your deity's favored weapon...)
At that point, it has far to do with your GM looking for an excuse to screw you than with any actual code of conduct.
Edit: Thinking about it, the subjectiveness of the paladin code is a feature, not a bug. The vagueness leaves wide open the possibility of, for example, an Eagle Knight of Andoran and a Hellknight of Cheliax having radically different ideas of what constitutes legitimate authority, and both being subjectively right. (Which, incidentally, is how you get paladins to fight each other.)
SO thinking about it, I don't have much issue with the GM deciding that using a bow was dishonorable. But for the GM to wait until the paladin (who had presumably been carrying a bow the whole time) shot at a dragon, to inform the paladin's player that using bows wasn't acceptable and that his paladin had therefore fallen? That is what makes that particular GM a complete schmuck.
As to the original topic: no argument at all that an arcane trickster is a better rogue, though it's more that an arcane trickster is a wizard whose ray attacks really freaking hurt.
The main problem is the decently long stretch where you're both mediocre at being a rogue and at being a wizard.
Experience from my own games (I've never played one, but had other players who have) is that arcane trickster is terrible to actually level a character up into, but great if you're rolling a higher level character who gets the skip the time frame where they kinda sucked.
@ BadBird (the benefits of editing - I'm replying to a post from the future) - while not a big deal, the L9 paladin casts divine favor for +2. That -3 caster level can be a real pain the ass sometimes. (Hugely influenced how my Kingmaker pally picked her spells, anyways. Though splashing 2 bard levels for Versatile Performance (Dance) didn't help my caster level either.)
It depends. Warpriests are better against non-evil threats and casting than the paladin. Fervor is certainly better than Lay on Hands. Sacred Weapon and Divine Bond is equal, and Warpriests are able to swift action summon or do other interesting things via blessings that the paladin cannot.
Warpriests are nowhere near as good as Paladins are.
Even for straight-up smashing things, the Warpriest has plenty of tools to remain competitive. If a level 9 Paladin can cast Divine Favor for +4 damage and then Smite for +9, a Warpriest can activate blessings like Destruction or Good for +4 or +1d6&holy, swift-action his Divine Favor for +4, and have Weapon Specialization for another +2. The Paladin is still the king of squishing selected evil, but it's hardly a wash. Anyhow the biggest plus for the Warpriest is in the fact that they can use all those bonus feats to do feat-intensive things, like fighting with two massively buffed weapons.
Yeesh, I didn't expect my post to derail the thread for over 20 posts.
Ah well. I managed to put some paladin into somebody's rogue thread. That's got to be worth at least +5 internet points, right?