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I think it would be a fun, if not powerful, combo to play.
Or could it be awesome mechanically? I am going off of the assumption that empty hand for duelist/swordlord means you can still use it to cast spells. If not, then maybe just swordlord/duelist. I see the magus part being not so much for more DPR, but for self spell support. Spells like shield, invisibility, what have you. Though, there are some great options with a couple more levels that could make DPR pretty darn spiffy.
How would you build this character? How many levels of each class would you take, and why?
Or should I take the Swordlord PrC instead of the duelist?
Mind that the Aldori Mastery feat gives you a +2 shield bonus with your blade, so the Shield spell will only be worth +2 AC. I'm fond of the two level dip in MoMS monk for Crane Style/Wing.
Are you going for a dex build, or str?
For Dex:
Consider being a normal fighter (get Weapon Training to enable gloves of dueling) and dipping into the Swordlord PrC for Dex to damage (unless you can reliably get an agile weapon). My character is a halfling for the Cautious Fighter (and +) feats.
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I was thinking about going Dex. Maybe even taking dervish dance at low levels to stay on top then retraining it later when I get to the Swordlord Prc.
I forgot about the +2 shield bonus for Aldori Mastery. Thanks for pointing that out. I may just forget the magus part and go full fighter/swordlord, though I do kinda want to mix it up a bit with this guy and do something off the wall.
These sorts of builds have become rather popular of late, so I'm sure someone will hop in with their take on it. Meanwhile I can leave you with the character I'm playing:
http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=42084
https://docs.google.com/a/ucdavis.edu/document/d/1swbRKUl8RB74icbJVY4CV9cty gkXHIb5EjoMLuBfixA/edit?pli=1
Mind that the game is fairly high powered and everyone else in his party is a full caster. We also get custom stuff, so he got the Duelist ability Precise Strike for his char level. As such a non-homebrew verison of this character would see a significant drop in damage (though still be respectably strong against Large+ enemies).
I'm currently running a Monk (Master of Many Styles/Hungry Ghost) 2 / Magus (Kensai/Bladebound) 5 in a friend's homebrew and it's working out wonderfully. I've posted the build in brief around the forums but I cna break it down again here.
The build, in brief, is Kensai with an early 2 level dip into Master of Many Styles. Take Crane Style and Crane Wing as your Monk bonus feats. Then Kensai the rest of the way.
The Build
20 point buy w/ the Dual Talent Human alternate racial trait. Bonuses in Dex and Int.
Stats: Str 10, Dex 16 (18), Con 12, Int 14(16), Wis 14, Cha 8
Level 1: Magus (Kensai/Bladebound)
Level 2: Monk (Master of Many Styles/Hungry Ghost)
Level 3: Monk
Level 4+: Magus
Traits: Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp), Sword Scion
Feats from build (and where you get them from):
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Kensai)
Weapon Focus (Kensai)
Crane Style (Monk)
Crane Wing (Monk)
Punishing Kick (Monk)
Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk)
Recommended Feats:
Additional Traits - for Defensive Strategist and Reactionary
Intensify Spell
Dodge
Crane Riposte
Combat Expertise
Deflect Arrows
Recommended Equipment:
Agile Weapon
Belt of Dex
Headband of Int/Wis
Pearls of Power
How it works:
Dex to AC is standard, your Dex is high. Awesome
Kensai archetype gives you Int to AC.
Monk levels give you Wis to AC.
Crane Style tree gives you bonuses to AC for Fighting Defensively.
Crane Wing gives you the ability to automatically parry one melee attack every round you Fight Defensively.
Main damage output comes from Shocking Grasp + Spell Combat/Spellstrike. With a few Pearls of Power this becomes spammable.
Pros & Cons:
Pros:
-High AC without clanky armor. At level 6 I've reached 38 AC during a combat (with the help of some buffs from my allies. 10 + Dex(5) + Int(4) + Wis(3) + Mage Armor(4) + Shield(4) + Shield of Faith(2) + Fighting Defensively(4) + Barkskin (2).
-Ability to parry one melee attack that bypasses your AC every round.
-Spellcasting allows for more versatility than most martial classes.
-Spellcombat + Spell Strike allows for devastating burst damage in later levels (ye olde Intensified Shocking Grasp trick for 10d6 electric damage).
-High Saves. +3 to all saves for the level dip in monk. Your Ref and Will saves will be great too because of your abilities. Fort also scales well from your Magus levels.
Cons:
-You're reliant on buffs. Mage Armor you can provide for yourself. But Shield is tasty and can only be cast on you by other classes (invest in UMD and you can cast scrolls of it on yourself). Being buff dependent also means you can't fight all day the way a clank n' tank fighter can.
-Your Flat-Footed AC is 10. No seriously. Being able to prepare for a fight makes all the difference. I recommend taking the Defensive Strategist trait with this build.
-Your main DPR comes from Shocking Grasp. You've got almost nothing against something with Resist or Immunity to Electricity.
-You're going to want an weapon with the Agile quality or use a Scimitar with the Dervish Dancer feat. As a melee class with low Str, you're going to want some way add Dex to damage.
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I wouldn't need mage armor, since he would be able to cast in light armor.
I'm thinking a dip of either two or four magus levels, the rest in fighter (swordlord) levels, and take the swordlord PrC as soon as it's available. Hopefully I'll have access to a dueling sword early on, or an agile weapon, but if I stack int, dex and con, and leave the rest at ten or twelve, I could be looking at a pretty solid melee support character that can have an easy time not getting hit. I'll actually put it all together and post my ideas later, I'm not near a computer or my books.
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So I cut out the swordlord archetype altogether, and went five levels of bladebound magus. The +2 enhancement on the black blade (aldori dueling sword) really helps at those low levels before I get the aldori dueling mastery feat from the PrC. My skills and whatnot look like this after racial adjustments and the ability score increase. I really didn't want to drop Cha down so much, but I really needed more Str for levels 1-3, and it'll help a little bit anyway. I used a 20 point buy.
Ra'Shek Ironguard
Human Bladebound Magus 5
Str:14
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 11
Cha: 7
AC: 21 (+1 chain shirt of light fortification, ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1)
Fort: 7
Ref: 6
Will: 5 (Cloak of resistance +1)
Attack: +2 Aldori Dueling Sword (Black Blade): +10; 1d8+4
Skills:
Acrobatics 5 ranks
Intimidate 5 ranks
Knowledge, nobility 3 ranks
Sense Motive 3 ranks
Spellcraft 5 ranks
Stealth 5 ranks
Other gear:
Pearl of Power 1
Mundane Gear
Healing Potion x4
Spells per Day: 4/5/3
Like this, he qualifies for the Aldori Swordlord PrC. i plan on taking 1 level in that, then going back to magus for a while. That way, he gets the dueling mastery feat, and then can go back to getting all of his magus-y goodness. The only thing I am concerned with is his Int. Do you guys think it is too low?
Also, is there a feat in Pathfinder that allows you to count other levels (non caster) as caster levels to determine spells per day and whatnot? I know there was one in 3.5. If there is, I will probably take that and go magus only until his blade hits the nest upgrade threshold, then go Aldori the rest of the way.
Opinions?
Thoughts on Stats:
I think you should go
Str: 13
Dex: 16 (18)
Con: 12
Int: 15 (16)
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
Points in Str beyond 14 are a waste (IMO) because you're eventually going to get Dex to damage from the Aldori Swordlord PrC. Arcane Pool will help mitigate that until you get there. They only reason you'd want a Str 13 anyways is to qualify for Power Attack. You want your Int to be higher because that's really the only way you're getting more Arcane Pool points. Bladebound Magus gets only 1/3 level + Int instead of the normal 1/2 + Int.
You can also afford to have your Con a bit lower because 1) as a Magus you're getting good Fort saves anyways and 2) you won't be the main frontline tank so it shouldn't be necessary to have a ton of HP. Also since your Int is a bit higher you can use your favored class bonus as HP instead of Skill points if you really want. I actually think the best use of Favored Class for a Bladebound Magus is 1/4 Arcane Pool.
What Feats/Traits are you taking?
There isn't a feat that raises your CL that's Official Paizo. There is however this by Open Design.
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After I posted that last night, I had the exact same thought for the stats, except I was going to make str a 12. Also I think I am going to take the favorite class bonus for 1/4 arcane pool. I'm not positive on what traits I want to take yet, I was thinking reactionary for the initiative buff. The other trait is up in the air right now. Any suggestions? I plan on making use of the 5 foot step option as much as possible to avoid concentration checks for now because I don't have combat casting.
Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp) is usually the standard trait for Magus builds. It allows you to Intensify Shocking Grasp as a level 1 spell (10d6 electric damage at level 10). It's probably going to be your go to source of damage.
If you're still expecting to go Aldori Swordlord PrC you're going to need four feats to qualify: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Aldori Dueling Sword), Weapon Focus (Aldori Dueling Sword), Weapon Finesse, and Dazzling Display. That pretty much takes care of ALL your feat choices up through level 5. (Bonus Human, 1, 3, and 5).
Picking up Intensify Spell at 7 is a solid option as it will make Shocking Grasp still useful. Also, consider Lunge as soon as your BAB hits +6. You'll never have to cast defensively again (unless fighting things with reach).
Honestly, my advice, take the Kensai archetype, ditch armor, and get EWP (Aldori Dueling Sword) and Weapon Focus (Aldori Dueling Sword) for FREE. This will give you them option of taking things like Power Attack or Arcane Strike that really help your DPR at low levels. The only major downside is -1 spell per level. But as a Magus, you're already a pretty focused spellcaster anyways.
Losing Spell Recall may LOOK like a big downside except when you realize that you already have the Bladebound archetype and have a tiny Arcane Pool anyways, which limits the effectiveness of Spell Recall. Just load up on Pearls of Power and you'll do fine.
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Magical lineage sounds great. My feats are tied up in the Prc prerequisites, but I definitely plan on taking intensify spell. I think we are starting these characters off at level six, so power attack won't be too necessary since I'll be doing dex for damage.
Taking the kensai archetype is a good idea, I don't know why it never occurred to me. He won't suffer anything other than a few spells, and that can be made up with some pearls of power.
Now I just have to decide what feats to take since kensai gives me two of the ones I had for free...
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Version 2
Human Bladebound Kensai 5
Str: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
AC: 18 (bracers of armor +2, +4 dex, amulet of natural armor +1, ring of protection +1) 21 when wielding his black blade (uncanny defense)
Fort: 7
Ref: 6
Will: 5 (Cloak of resistance +1)
Attack: +2 Aldori Dueling Sword (Black Blade): +10; 1d8+2
Skills:
Acrobatics 5 ranks
Intimidate 5 ranks
Knowledge, nobility 3 ranks
Sense Motive 3 ranks
Spellcraft 5 ranks
Stealth 5 ranks
Other gear:
Pearl of Power 1 (x2)
Mundane Gear
Healing Potion x4
Spells per Day: 3/4/2
Feats:
Exotic Weapon Prof- Aldori Dueling Sword (kensai)
Weapon Focus- Aldori Dueling Sword (kensai)
Dazzling Display (Magus Bonus Feat)
? (Human Bonus Feat)
1. Weapon Finesse
3. ?
5. ?
Traits:
Reactionary- +2 to initiative
Magical Lineage- Shocking Grasp
This leaves me with some feats to fill in, and 1400 gp to finish out my wealth by level. Any ideas?
Also, man, there is a lot of stuff to keep track of when you do two archetypes of the same class!
you should get 13 STR for powerattack considering you can put your second hand on a 1handed weapon its a lot of damage you are throwing away certainly with a dex build you don't get any bonus damage from STR with a dex build so powerattack is even more important.
and considering you have high dex and good defensive spells like mirror image you can do fine with 12 con
as a Bladebound magus you can definitely use extra arcane pool as well as extra arcana.
wand of shield is always a good combat starter (+4AC 1 min)
you could get toughness if you really want that HP from CON?
wand wielder arcana and a CL5 wand of shocking grasp would let you spam shocking grasp all day long would cost you 5*750 tho
Alternatively, consider the Dual Talent racial trait.
Dual Talent - Some humans are uniquely skilled at maximizing their natural gifts. These humans pick two ability scores and gain a +2 racial bonus in each of those scores. This racial trait replaces the +2 bonus to any one ability score, the bonus feat, and the skilled traits.
So it's basically swapping out your bonus feat as a human for an extra +2 to another score. If you put the extra bonus in Int, it mitigates the loss of the bonus skill point per level from Dual Talent.
Additional Traits is also good. I mentioned it up there in my wall of text. Since you're not wearing armor as a Kensai, getting caught off guard or losing Initiative is the worst. The Defensive Strategist trait helps with this issue. For the second trait you could choose something that might help your ability to interact socially. Something that gives you bonuses or makes it a class skill to a social skill like Bluff of Diplomacy.
Or consider Metamagic Master (formally Wayang Spellhunter) and choose a spell like Snowball.
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I really started to consider Dual Talent, and I think I may take it anyway in place of reactionary. Putting that in intelligence would allow me to move my point buy around a bit, and help increase... something. Or should I just use it to buff Int and have two 18s without any low stats?
If I use power attack, don't I lose the bonuses from Aldori Swordlord's dueling mastery? This character will start at level six, so I am taking one level of Aldori Swordlord and dealing dex for damage instead of str, so i don't think power attack is really going to be any use. Or is it?
Extra Arcane Pool is high on the list, I won't be able to take Extra Arcana for a while though, since bladebound replaces the arcana at third level. At level five, I'm looking at having the best sword in the party, just because it's already +2 and because I can add all the different abilities to it. So more arcane pool is a must.
I like having a higher than average con. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I'm probably not going to lower it. And the group I run with is known for being VERY caster/rogue/bard heavy, so it could work out that this guy is our front melee. (Which isn't all that bad, considering how many buffs would get thrown at him if that happened to be the case.)
So, in short, things to add/consider ading:
Power attack?
Dual Talent
Extra Arcane Pool
If i take extra pool at third level, what should I take at fifth? (if power attack ends up being useless because of dex to damage)
EDIT: Defensive Strategist looks.... awesome. So which trait do i replace?
dual talented is an alternative racial trait you give up the extra skilpoint and the extra feat from being human
but get +2 to two ability scores
i use it in my magus have 18 STR and 18 int now :-)
extra arcane pool is awesome :-)
Dual Talent ISN'T something that takes up a "trait slot."
Normally as a Human you get +2 to any one ability score, +1 Skill Point per level, and a Bonus Feat. Just for being Human. You can choose to give up both of these benefits for Dual Talent, which is +2 in any TWO ability scores.
It's unfortunate that there are Race Traits and Racial Traits.
One is a type of Trait that are 1/2 feats.
The other is a substitution you can make just for being human.
I hope I explained it well enough.
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I'm taking dual talent to raise Int to 18.
I'm taking Elemental Spell to change my shocking grasp damage so I don't have to rely on electricy damage all the time.
I'm considering raising Str. Since he is melee based, it wouldn't make good roleplaying sense for him to be a total weakling next to other adventurers.
I'm taking Extra Arcane Pool, though I'm conflicted as whether I should take it or Elemental Spell first. Probably Extra Pool.
Con is staying where it is. I like having a lot of HP, and I don't have the feat space for toughness.
Intensify Spell is coming at level 7.
Am I not mentioning anything that you guys suggested? Besides power attack, I don't see it helping me since I'll be starting off with the Swordlord PrC giving me Dex to damage.
As a human your Favored Class Bonus for being a Magus is alternatively to get 1/4th of an Arcane Pool point. I suggest you do that for your first 4 lvls and then go extra skill-/hit point for your 5th lvl? Your choice.
With the con he has he could just keep the 1/4 bonus up till 20 lol this way he doesnt rezaly need the feat extra arcane pool that much
Its a human option to take 1 point of arcane pool evry 4 lvls instead of a hp or skilpoint each lvl
Sorry for the typing im on my ipad
So I cut out the swordlord archetype altogether, and went five levels of bladebound magus. The +2 enhancement on the black blade (aldori dueling sword) really helps at those low levels before I get the aldori dueling mastery feat from the PrC. My skills and whatnot look like this after racial adjustments and the ability score increase. I really didn't want to drop Cha down so much, but I really needed more Str for levels 1-3, and it'll help a little bit anyway. I used a 20 point buy.
Ra'Shek Ironguard
Human Bladebound Magus 5Str:14
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 11
Cha: 7AC: 21 (+1 chain shirt of light fortification, ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1)
Fort: 7
Ref: 6
Will: 5 (Cloak of resistance +1)Attack: +2 Aldori Dueling Sword (Black Blade): +10; 1d8+4
Skills:
Acrobatics 5 ranks
Intimidate 5 ranks
Knowledge, nobility 3 ranks
Sense Motive 3 ranks
Spellcraft 5 ranks
Stealth 5 ranksOther gear:
Pearl of Power 1
Mundane Gear
Healing Potion x4Spells per Day: 4/5/3
Like this, he qualifies for the Aldori Swordlord PrC. i plan on taking 1 level in that, then going back to magus for a while. That way, he gets the dueling mastery feat, and then can go back to getting all of his magus-y goodness. The only thing I am concerned with is his Int. Do you guys think it is too low?
Also, is there a feat in Pathfinder that allows you to count other levels (non caster) as caster levels to determine spells per day and whatnot? I know there was one in 3.5. If there is, I will probably take that and go magus only until his blade hits the nest upgrade threshold, then go Aldori the rest of the way.
Opinions?
I count a point unspent on your build at 1st.
14 iINT is pritty low for a magus no way you can drop dex to 17 (and put it on 18 at lvl 4 ?
then pull up INT a point? so you can go to 16 int at 8 ?
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So, here is the final version of my Bladebound/Kensai Magus 5, Aldori Swordlord (PrC) 1. A few changes to feats, skills, and starting stats since the last version. Also a name change. With his Aldori Swordlord boosts to AC he's looking ok there, his spells per day aren't that bad because of the headband boost, and his spell combat abilities with his metamagic feats look like he'll be able to hold his own in combat. The only trouble spots I see are his saves, which look a tad low, and his base attack. His dex to damage is a great thing, I'm thinking I need to take combat expertise and improved disarm soon, maybe to give him a better edge in combat? What are your opinions?
Sevas Deraika Chaotic Good (dual talent human)
Hp: 51
Initiative: 7, 9 when wielding Black Blade
AC: 19 (2 armor, 5 dex, 1 nat. armor, 1 deflection) 24 when wielding Black Blade ( 2 shield, 5 Int.)
Str: 10
Dex: 18 -> 20 (belt of incredible dex +2)
Con: 14
Int: 18 -> 20 (headband of vast int +2)
Wis: 10
Cha 8
Attack: +2 Aldori Dueling Sword; +12 (1d8+7)
Saves:
Fort: 7
Ref: 8
Will: 5
Skills:
Acrobatics: 14
Diplomacy: 8 (headband associated skill)
Intimidate: 8
Knowledge Arcana: 14
Knowledge Nobility: 11
Sense Motive: 8
Spellcraft: 14
Stealth: 11
Feats:
Weapon Finesse (level 1)
Exotic Weapon Prof.-Aldori Dueling Sword (kensai)
Weapon Focus-Aldori Dueling Sword (kensai)
Dazzling Display (Magus Bonus)
Elemental Spell (level 3)
Intensified Spell (level 5)
Aldori Dueling Mastery (Aldori Swordlord PrC)
Traits:
Defensive Strategist- Not flatfooted when unaware of combat
Magical Lineage, Shocking Grasp- Treat spell as 1 level lower when determining prepared spell slot
Gear:
Pearl of Power 1
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2
Headband of vast Intelligence +2
Cloak of Resistance +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Sevas Deraika Chaotic Good (dual talent human)
Hp: 51
Initiative: 7, 9 when wielding Black Blade
AC: 19 (2 armor, 5 dex, 1 nat. armor, 1 deflection) 24 when wielding Black Blade ( 2 shield, 5 Int.)Str: 10
Dex: 18 -> 20 (belt of incredible dex +2)
Con: 14
Int: 18 -> 20 (headband of vast int +2)
Wis: 10
Cha 8Feats:
Weapon Finesse (level 1)
Exotic Weapon Prof.-Aldori Dueling Sword (kensai)
Weapon Focus-Aldori Dueling Sword (kensai)
Dazzling Display (Magus Bonus)
Elemental Spell (level 3)
Intensified Spell (level 5)
Aldori Dueling Mastery (Aldori Swordlord PrC)Traits:
Defensive Strategist- Not flatfooted when unaware of combat
Magical Lineage, Shocking Grasp- Treat spell as 1 level lower when determining prepared spell slot
If your GM lets you take spire defender as a non elf how about:
Str: 10
Dex: 18 -> 20 (belt of incredible dex +2)
Con: 14
Int: 16 -> 18 (headband of vast int +2)
Wis: 10
Cha 8
Level 1: Magus (spire defender/ bladebound)- Combat expertise(spire)/ dodge (spire) /weapon finesse (1st level)/ aldori dueling sword (human)
Level 2:unarmed fighter - improved unarmed combat, crane style
Level 3: Magus-weapon focus
Level 4: Magus-
level 5: Magus-Dazzling display
Level 6: Swordlord
With this set up you don't use dual talented. The lower INT is offset by not losing a spell each level by taking the kensi archetype. You pick up several feats :dodge, combat expertise,improved unarmed combat and crane style. If you swap out your traits like I recommend and than pick up crane wing with your next feat you'll be a defensive juggernaught even with only wearing a mithral chain shirt. Intensify spell isn't needed until later levels when you have the caster levels to use it(if at all 5d6=17.5 average damage and only a few times a day.) You also don't really need elemental spell since your castings are so limited. If you are fighting something immune to a particular element just save the spell and hack at it. With those changes you don't need magical lineage, swap in magical knack to up your caster level instead. I'd also swap Defensive Strategist for threatening defender to lower your combat expertise penalty.
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You make a good point about not needing intensify spell yet. I think I'll drop it for now and pick it up at seventh. Perhaps I'll take combat expertise. I like the kensai/bladebound idea better than spire defender though, and I don't really think I'll go the route of unarmed fighter. I like the spell setup he has now, and I have always had really good experiences in 3.5 with energy substitution. I think I will keep that feat as well. I want this guy to more of a support melee who can dish out a ton of damage all at once than a tank type build who centers on defense. Magical lineage in my opinion is better than magical knack because i can prepare shocking grasp as a lvl 1 spell with intensified spell later, and recall it if I need to with very cheap pearls of power.
I would, however, like to know if anyone has any tips to up his straight melee damage, as it feels a little low for lvl 6. He does plenty of tricks up his sleeve right now, though, what with dazzling display and his swordlord abilities.
as a bladebound magus you only get your first arcana at 6
i would leave my lvl 7 feat slot open posibly for extra arcana if you totaly dont need anny arcana then ofcourse ignore me :-)
i took intensefy at 5 because i want to take arcane accuracy at lvl 7 as im gonna take wand wielder at 6
or wand wielder at 6 and craft wand at 7 lolz