Kitsune + Disguise Self spell

[That Crazy Alchemist]

How does a Kitsune's Change Shape ability interact with a Disguise Self spell?

Kitsune Change Shape:

Change Shape (Su) A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex. The kitsune always takes this specific form when she uses this ability. A kitsune in human form cannot use her bite attack, but gains a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as alter self, except that the kitsune does not adjust her ability scores.

Disguise Self:

You make yourself - including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment - look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype). Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person or gender.

The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check. A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.

So we have two +10's here. In what situations, if any, would these two stack?

1) If you try to Disguise yourself as a specific human (like the Town Mayor)?
2) How about a non-specific Human? (some random Human)
3) How about a non-specific non-human humanoid, like an elf? (some random elf)

(I am aware of the Realistic Likeness feat, for the purposes of this thread, assume this Feat is not involved)

[Dafydd]

+20 to look like the mayor
+20 to look like random human
+10 to look like random elf

Change shape lists its bonus only to appear as human, so it does not apply to looking like an elf.

Assuming you use the Disguise self to make a disguise (why are you using this if you are not?) it applies the +10.

However, you have a weird case where someone can see through the glamer, but still might not see you as Kitsune.

[Bandw2]

Change shape, is a polymorph effect, and disguise self is a glamer, so they both appear to stack, so yes, +20 to appear human, +10 to anything else, as Change Shape only effects your ability to appear human.

+10 alone counteracts against someone who is intimate with the subject transforming into, so this is very powerful if used correctly i think.

I'm not sure however if a kitsune's bonus should be used for the mayor, as they simply have to figure out that he isn't the mayor, even if they still believe he is human.

[Weirdo]

I don't think that's the intent of Kitsune Change Shape. It states that you always turn into the same specific human. There is no reason that a kitsune who can turn into a thin female human would be better at impersonating a fat male human than another fat male human would be, all other things equal. I believe the intent is +10 to pass as human - to hide the fact that you're a Kitsune - which shouldn't apply if you're trying to fool people familiar with your specific human form.

The reference to Alter Self definitely prevents disguising yourself as a specific human, since you can't (barring Realistic Likeness) use a polymorph effect like Alter Self to turn into a specific individual.

I would eliminate the -2 penalty for disguising yourself as a different race for a kitsune in human form disguising themselves as a different human, but that's just me.

[Alexander Augunas]

Remember that a DC 20 Sense Motive check will always inform a PC that "something's off" about the character, even if they don't know what that "something" is.

If you want to justify the stacking bonuses, disguise self doesn't change how you feel, sound, or smell. So, for instance, you might have a more "foxy" smell as a kitsune, your footpads and nails probably sound different from a human foot, or someone might be able to hear your tail swishing back and forth. If someone were to touch your arm or face, they'd feel fur, not human skin.

Change shape (or alter self, really) solves those problems. You physically become human, so if you're disguised as a human and someone touches you, they feel human skin, and you have the right "shape" if you will. Under disguise self, someone could literally walk into or step upon your seemingly non-existent tail.

[Weirdo]

The incomplete nature of Disguise Self is covered by the fact that you can disbelieve Disguise Self if you interact with it (and get a chance to brush against the tail, etc).

Change Shape solves the problem of someone stepping on our tail, but it doesn't/shouldn't make you any more convincing than a similarly built human using the same Disguise Self spell.

If someone sees through Disguise Self and you have Change Shape on, they'll see a human in disguise, not a Kitsune. But they still see the specific human that you turn into, not the mayor.

[That Crazy Alchemist]

That's pretty much the same conclusion I've pulled, Weirdo, thanks!