Characters using monster templates

[jasonthelamb]

I was just looking this over - I have some various players who have expressed interest in using monster templates to add some flavor to their character. So, it's listed as CR + X - lets use a half-dragon for example, which is CR + 2.

Assume that the party is a group of level 5 adventurers.

1) Am I correct in assuming that the CR of each adventurer is 4?
2) Should the person become a level 2 or level 3 adventurer with the half-dragon template?

I'm just not sure about this, I read some threads in a google search and they all seemed very confusing - I was just wondering if there was an easy way to apply this without letting one character just become grossly overpowered and ruin the game for the rest of the party.

[Ascalaphus]

3.x tried to do this, but ultimately the results were.. confusing.

See, the things that make a monster a "proper challenge" for adventurers aren't the same things that make a PC a proper challenge for the monsters.

Some templates will give a PC power that's much more than the CR adjustment would suggest. Others fall far short of it. The "this template is +X CR, therefore it counts as +Y character level" logic from D&D turned out to not really work.

Currently PF has no real system for measuring how this is likely to work out.

[StDrake]

A common method is to just treat CR as levels and have the tenplated character lag behind that much, but this way is faulty to say the least. One of the problems being what Ascalaphus mentionned - the templates being very unequal in terms of power, despite having the same adjustment, plus the power is sometimes usage-dependent.
The half-dragon is a very drastic template for any martial pc with the major str boost and immunity to one energy type.

If you can have those elements matter less you might as well not modify levels at all, point is that the gains from the template dont make that player outshine others more than they're agreeable towards and that it doesnt break the challenges you have for the party.

If the rest of the party are totally alergic to any close combat and feel they wont mind it if one of them handles ALL of it while they go about their things like crowd control, utility and the likes then you might let him get away with low or no level penalty, though id see a +8 strength boost rather hard to offset. Id throw in robbing him of his base racial traits AND have him lag a level behind.
All in all its an individual thing dependent on many things. Major ones being usage (class), challenge type, party composition and least but not least - player responsibility

[Jadeite]

A level 5 character would be CR 5 because a PC has better equipment than an NPC.
A played a graveknight antipaladin with CR as level adjustment and it kind of worked.

[the Queen's Raven]

game mastery guide wrote:

Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.

This should work with templates as well, I would think.

[kestral287]

To sort of expand on the balance concerns: look at the Advanced Template. +4 to all stats, +2 natural armor.

A Fighter, on leveling, gets +1/2 to Fort save, +1/3 to Ref/Will save, +1 BAB, +1D10+Con HP, and probably a feat. Advanced is going to give +2 to all saves, +2 initiative, +2 to hit/damage, +2 HP/lvl, and +4 AC. It's a much better deal, at pretty much any level. And, frankly, for almost any class. Even the Wizard could make a case for taking it.

By contrast, the Celestial template does add some energy resistance and some DR, very low Spell Resistance, plus Smite Evil 1/day. That's a decent set of abilities... but lots of foes will break the DR, the resistances are probably missing the most vital of them, the SR has a 20% chance of working against a same-level opponent, and 1/day isn't really something to rely on. Fighter may or may not be a better grab than that, but there are certainly classes where it isn't.

This is even more true with third-party templates. Celestial-Blessed is, on paper, a +1 CR template. In reality, it blows a great many +2 CR templates out of the water, and arguably some +3s. Leonal is insanely good, for Cure Serious Wounds 3/day, Pounce (natural/unarmed only... not even a little bit of a loss if you're building for it), +4 Str and +2 to all other stats, plus the generic 'weapons are magic and good, +1D6 vs. evil creatures', +1 morale on attack rolls/saving throws, +2 vs. poison/petrification, and electricity resistance 20.