|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Despite the appearance of there being only two, there are in fact three camps, loosely defined by play style, as regards the Dreamscarred Press book Path of War product, which I am going to order the hard copy of as soon as I can afford it.
This is a homebrew thread for the 'middle' camp of folks who see PoW as a book with tons of cool/sexy factor but a few structural flaws that could be amended, potentially to different degrees relative to the users (that's YOU) position on the conservative-to-liberal adjustment spectrum.
For those of you that think this book/sub-system is perfectly fine as it is, and for those of you who would never ever let this material into your game in any form, this thread is not for you. Herein I will theorycraft and homebrew 'fixes' or 'compromises' that will assist me in being more comfortable in handing this book to my players, and welcome other middle-campers to join me.
After reading Endzeitgeist's longwinded 3-star review of the product, I found myself agreeing with him about three main structural critiques, and began thinking of mechanical reconciliatory patches which I will propose below. Please feel free to critique. First up: The following proposals address the second bullet point, namely the "Lack of real tactical/logistical opportunity cost in maneuver recovery" concern:
Here is the first draft of an alternate logistical Maneuver Readying method.
Readying a Maneuver
An initiator may ready their maneuvers by spending 1 hour exercising, in meditation or prayer, or by practicing their techniques. If they do so during the same day without an 8-hour rest period first, they are afterwards fatigued until they get the requisite rest. An initiator who is exhausted may not ready their maneuvers using this method.
Here is a first draft of an alternate tactical Maneuver Recovery method by base class.
Stalker
The Stalker may enter a trance as a full-round action to grant himself a +4 bonus to AC until the end of the round and recover a number of maneuvers equal to his Wisdom bonus (minimum 1). The Stalker may do this a number of times equal to his Wisdom bonus before he must ready his maneuvers again (see Readying a Maneuver above), and once this limit has been met, is unable to recover a maneuver using this method.
Warder
The Warder may take a full-round action to recover a number of maneuvers equal to her Intelligence modifier, activating her Defensive Focus ability. The Warder may do this a number of times equal to her Intelligence modifier before she must ready her maneuvers again (see Readying a Maneuver above), and once this limit has been met, is unable to recover a maneuver using this method.
Warlord
The Warlord may use a Gambit to recover up to a number of maneuvers equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1). He must declare X number of maneuvers he intends to recover, and when making the attack roll, saving throw, or skill check (per the Gambit), automatically fails if he rolls up to a natural X on the die. If the gambit succeeds, he recovers the maneuvers. The Warder may do this a number of times equal to his Charisma modifier before he must ready his maneuvers again (see Readying a Maneuver above), and once this limit has been met, is unable to recover a maneuver using this method.
...
thoughts?
too harsh? restore the 10-minute all-day Ready.
too lenient? impose the 1/day after full rest only Ready.
|
|
ok shift gears.
I do not want to change the language for the Recovery methods. So let's strike those from the record.
But what can we do about Fear Eating Technique (Black Seraph level 2)? It allows you to heal yourself on successful use of Intimidate. Can I do this to anybody? All day long?
What if some maneuvers had an additional descriptor that limited their daily usage to X/day maximum where X= initiator modifier? Because it's true that not all the maneuvers are "broken" even if some are powerful indeed. But this could be a low impact way to reel in some of the more powerful ones. thoughts?
Hm totally missed this thread. Interesting. I'm currently in the process of running a campaign testing my own take on something like this.
For my setup I don't allow the dreamscarred classes myself, but allow the maneuvers. As the homebrew world I run is gestalt, characters that basically take two chiefly martial classes get a small amount of maneuvers known and usable (they select and specialize in two disciplines). Their maneuvers may be recovered with 10 mins of rest/meditation/etc. A number of maneuvers themselves as well have some changes or have been removed, though I won't include those here.
I currently have a maximum of 5th level maneuvers (6th level stances) but the current testing is making me reconsider it. It might be adding a bit too much oomph still. That or delay when they first start receiving them is more likely I think.
Here is how I've implemented it:
Characters that train exclusively and are gestalt-ed in a two martial classes (ex. rogue, fighter, monk, etc), have the time to learn and master special martial traditions that grant them greater mastery over their weapons and the ability to perform deadly techniques. These techniques fall into two categories, stances and maneuvers Maneuvers can be further broken down into boosts, counters, and strikes. Maneuvers and stances never provoke attacks of opportunity (unless stated otherwise) and require mobility and hence cannot be used if the target is unable to move for whatever reason (including being grappled, paralyzed, pinned, etc).
Any given maneuver a character knows when used expends energy and is considered unavailable until the character has time to recover their focus with 10 minutes of rest. During those 10 minutes any number of maneuvers or stances may be recovered at once, however. A hero point may be spent to recover an expended maneuver.
For initiator level, consider a character that qualifies for martial maneuvers to have an initiator level equal to their character level. The saving throw for any maneuver is equal to 10 + 1/2 initiator level + either their Str or Dex modifier (chosen at 1st level).
Martial maneuvers belong to what is called a martial discipline. The discipline determines a philosophy and the weapon types that may be used with a martial maneuver. Each discipline also has a certain skill integral to that discipline’s fighting style which is gained as a class skill when the discipline is selected.
When a martial character is created, they select two disciplines which become their trained disciplines. They may select any of their stances of maneuvers from only those two disciplines.
At even levels a martial character may train and change a single maneuver into another (maneuvers must be of the same level being exchanged).
The maneuvers a character gains as he levels are indicated by the chart below (stances may be selected from a level lower than the highest level available):
The Disciplines and their relevant information are:
Discipline Name - Associated Skill, Weapons Allowed for use
Broken Blade - Acrobatics, Close/Monk/Natural only
Golden Lion - Diplomacy, Any
Iron Tortoise - Bluff, Any but requires shield
Mythral Current - Intimidate, Slashing/Piercing Melee
Primal Fury - Survival, Any
Scarlet Throne - Sense Motive, Duelist Style (1 Weapon/Buckler or no weapon)
Solar Wind - Sense Motive, Ranged/Throwing weapons
Steel Serpent - Heal, Light Blade/Close/Monk
Veiled Moon - Stealth, Any
I've replaced the fighter with a modified warlord. I replaced all the warlord's gambit stuff with bonus feats and renamed it the fighter. Also I allow the class access to all the disciplines, picking two at first level and a third at tenth. I've been working on converting some of the better archetypes the original fighter had that can't be replicated pretty well with feat selections and the right discipline. And ditto for the warlord's and the warden's archetypes. So far that's all that I've done.
As for the various maneuvers, they are limited in their use. You can only use them a number of times per day, depending on the class. It's true you can regain spent prepared maneuvers though, and it's pretty easy. Spend a standard action. Perhaps maneuvers just can't be recovered, like spend spells. Except some classes can recover spent spells.
|
|
UsagiTaicho,
I assume you mean your "fighter" can only prepare a certain amount of maneuvers per day, sealing the "slot" like a Wizard choosing a spell, but may recover those selected maneuvers (using a standard action) as often as he likes? Do I got that right?
If so, that doesn't really close the infinity loop. Which may or may not be what you are trying to do.
I figure using the abstraction "encounter" as it is understood by the material itself can provide a parameter. Kind of like the notion of 4E healing surges. But different in that the initiator can prepare maneuvers without limitation, but only recover them in the context of a limited number of encounters. If that kinda makes sense.
Aleron,
Why no CON?
Hm hadn't seen a reason for Con as an option mostly. Can't really think of a character concept or gestalt class combination that would really tailor to that being used.
Honestly though, I'm pretty easy going with my rules and if a player presented me with a character that wanted to use Con instead of the others I'd probably allow it in a heartbeat (and adjust the houserules after to make that allowed from then on). I have a good set of players that generally avoid abusing things too badly (and bring up when they can so I can fix stuff up and refine the houserules).
As written the initiators can only prepare a certain number of their maneuvers known per day. So yeah, that's what I meant.
Also yes, pretty much. Seems a bit unfair to the wizards and other casters who have to spend something greater than a standard action to recover. None of the recovery methods are limited.
For a warlord to recover expended maneuvers, he must perform one of two types of actions: a gambit action in which he gambles on his performance in battle (see Warlord's Gambit below), or he may spend a standard action to recover a single readied maneuver of his choosing.
Stalkers may recover their maneuvers in one of two ways. The stalker may either center his awareness of the combat momentarily as a standard action and recover a single expended maneuver of his choice.
Alternately, he may recover his Wisdom modifier in expended maneuvers (min of 2) as a full round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, centering his spirit completely to re-align his perceptions of the battle and change his place in it. When recovering his maneuvers as a full round action, he may move up to his base speed and adds a +4 insight bonus to his Armor Class as his ki defends his form while he re-centers himself. The next attack or martial strike he attempts after recovering his maneuvers adds his deadly strike's damage to the attack if successful.
For a warder to recover expended maneuvers, she must take stock of her situation to plan for her next movement. By focusing entirely on a defensive position to prepare her next move, she is able to regain maneuvers expended to assist her to victory. By taking a full round action to plan her next move (activating her defensive focus class feature, see below), she recovers a number of expended maneuvers equal to her Intelligence modifier (minimum of 2). Alternately, she may take a brief pause in battle and recover a single maneuver of her choosing by spending a standard action on her turn.
I'm going to change my fighter to a full round recovery option, probably limited to a number of times per day equal to 1/2 his class level. Maybe add in the charisma mod, since some of his other abilities work with that already.
|
|
I actually like the recovery methods of the stalker, warder and warlord. But I think limiting recovery somehow is a way to cut the classes off from some of their infamous exploits.
I wanted to avoid X times per day and instead introduce X encounters per day. But that may too slippery a definition as well.
I love Path of War, but I agree the maneuver system needed another pass. A lot of the rules text is overly complicated for what otherwise seems like a rather simple system. One of my players has a monk with Broken Blade and he placed a self-imposed nerf that all maneuvers that grant bonus damage on unarmed strikes only apply on the first hit rather than all attacks for the round. Otherwise, he'd be doing flurry of blows while dealing +8d6 damage per hit. I also prevented another player from choosing any Scarlet Throne maneuver that lets him deal bonus damage based on percentage of health remaining and that maneuver that lets you coup de grace a non-helpless enemy. Not only are they broken, but also I use MapTools and let my players see a health bar for enemies since I think it's realistic that PCs can gauge how wounded an enemy is.
Wouldn't a X times per day and X encounters per day just be the same thing, except limited to an encounter scenario? Or do you mean X times per encounter?
|
|
Cyrad,
Do you think a simple patch to restricting recovery is possible? (as opposed to a maneuver-by-maneuver patch)? If your Monk or Scarlet could only use those maneuvers a limited number of times per day, would that change your opinion about how "broken" they were?
UsagiTaicho,
The difference between X times-per-day and X encounters-per-day is that within the context of a single encounter, an initiator could use his recovery methods as many times as he liked until the encounter "ended" - admittedly leaving the question about when "ended" happens. It is also easier to count.
In most cases, a limited use on the maneuvers I find problematic wouldn't fix much. The outliers do as much damage as a spell of comparable level. A spellcaster can normally only cast their highest spell level maybe once or twice per day -- a couple more if a sorcerer. Initiators can do it once per encounter, assuming they don't use their recovery class features. The Scarlet Throne maneuvers that do damage based on remaining hit points don't belong in the game at all, in my opinion.
Ah yes, I get it now. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Cyrad,
I'm kind of hoping nobody pops in here and accuses me of hating martials...
You cheeky c*nt, you think you can walk up in here and make fun of us lower martials, my ranger'l pop you 'ight in the gabber 'e will.
But in all seriousness, just times the number of readied maneuvers by 5 or something and have that the total number of maneuvers that can be done in a day as a cap separate from other functions like number readied "per encounter" or changing the re-readying mechanic; if they re-ready their maneuvers, they just burn through them faster, just like how casters burn through spells on bosses faster.
I also don't see a problem with it as base since its the GMs job to balance encounters to the players; if that means sending higher CR enemies at them but still giving them lower XP, so be it. Is someone in the party falling behind because they aren't PoW? hybridize their class to have limited maneuvers (I would do 1/4 their levels in non-initiator classes go towards learning, readying, and using maneuvers of one of the 3 classes) or allow the dreaded psionics.
[Edit: Also don't let them take maneuvers that are just stronger versions of ones they already have, if they were greedy and took it early, too bad. This helps promote versatility in their maneuvers so they aren't reusing just the high power ones.
Although I personally wouldn't do this, you could always make it so they cant re-ready, outside of the re-readying abilities, a maneuver until they have used all of their other maneuvers (or a certain percent of them).]
|
|
cheeky*
Your three suggestions are appreciated! But I'm not sure if they are the solution I am looking for. The "vancian" initiator is an interesting idea but to me falls short on the flavor (it's a little too premeditated). The per-maneuver daily cap is a good limitation but introduces a lot of additional bookkeeping. And the "no recovery until all expended" idea is just a little too wonky for actual execution. Maybe with more tinkering some parts of one or more of these ideas can be transmuted into a satisfactory one?
And yes, the DM must balance the encounters to the players, naturally, but he must also balance the players to the other players. Now these two aren't mutually exclusive nor does focusing on the first automatically take care of the second. And though I appreciate the suggestion, it won't work for me as I have a few old school players who are not interested in using maneuvers whatsoever.
I'm looking for a more sweeping change that I can somehow apply to all initiating classes (as well as core classes that take the maneuver-granting feats) that closes the infinity loop and limits other shenanigans (for example, even though I think "Skill Check vs Attack/Saves/AC" is bad design for PF, I'm willing to give it a reluctant pass on a limited basis). Ideally I'd like these classes to stand alongside my (house rule buffed) core martial classes with roughly equal contribution potential.
This is probably just a pet peeve of mine, but does anyone else find it odd that stances are listed in the same format and with maneuvers but aren't maneuvers? I understand differentiating them in the class ability texts, I just don't know why they didn't list them separately. Or why they didn't include them as maneuvers.
Not really helpful to the conversation, just a minor annoyance to me. My apologies.
How about something like:
Spent prepared maneuvers can only be regained after 1 hour of training.
I seem to recall this being a preferred method for swapping out fighter feats, so maybe it could work here.
Wizards and Sorcerers and the like do the same thing. The difference is the initiator still has a sword, probably a shield, and some class ability that helps them not die. Oh, and thick protective armor.
UsagiTaicho, I found that really annoying as well. Early on, I kept making the mistake that they had to be readied like maneuvers.
What if initiators can recover maneuvers X number of times per day and can only do them by using the recovery methods in their class description?
|
|
Recovery Surges
An initiator may only recover her maneuvers a number of times per day equal to her Constitution bonus (minimum 1) plus initiation modifier (minimum 1). She may exceed this limit by accepting fatigue until the next time she rests. She regains all her recovery surges after a full nights rest.
In order to use a recovery surge, the initiator may use her initiator class ability (Stalker's +4 dodge bonus, Warder's Defensive Focus, Warlord's Gambits) to recover all of her prepared maneuvers, or may take a move action to recover a number of maneuvers equal to her initiation modifier (minimum 1).
If she possesses no levels in an initiating class, she may use a recovery surge to recover a number of maneuvers equal to her Constitution bonus (minimum 1) as a standard action.
...
That might work, but I think you mean "the initiator may use her initiator class ability (Stalker's +4 dodge bonus, Warder's Defensive Focus, Warlord's Gambits) to recover all of her prepared maneuvers [that they would recover normally from the ability]."
While a lot of these suggestions are indeed low on flavor, its both because I'm trying to keep it varied enough to not mess with the wording of each of the classes and because someone better than I could come up with a good flavor for the cap.
hybridize their class to have limited maneuvers (I would do 1/4 their levels in non-initiator classes go towards learning, readying, and using maneuvers of one of the 3 classes) or allow the dreaded psionics
Here is a simple way to make your martials have access to the abilities and catch up with your Path of War classes. Personally, I've never play tested it with a group like that, but its close enough to the already listed rules that it should be a good starting point for testing balance.
I just read your custom class mods - very nice actually -; for rogue you could probably give them a specialization into one school at the cost of their debilitating injury feature, monks lose their style strike's normal advancement (leaving the sun path untouched) in place of a single specialization, and fighters take a feat that gives them the option to spend another feat giving them access to one specialization at 1/4 their level as initiator level (using the warlord (stalker for monk and rogue) as the base class for maneuvers and stances known, also based on 1/4 level) which could stack with the free single specialization they get, if you give them one as a non-initiator class.
Why not just use a feat that grants 1/4 maneuver advancement to non-casting classes? You could even make it a feat chain if you really wanted to limit it, or make a feat for each discipline.
Oh is it? I haven't looked at the feats much.
Its not a feat, but the initiator level stacks at a ratio of [highest initiator class]+[1/2 all other initiator classes]+[1/4 all other classes], I was say you could just give them an initiator level following that formula for when you don't actually have initiator levels. Of course since they don't have set number of maneuvers/stances or a set style so that's where I was saying you would pick one of the classes and get the number of maneuvers know/uses per day equal to 1/4 your total level in said class (12th lvl fighter can have the same number of known/uses per day/stances of a 4th level warlord/warder/stalker) and must pick one of the disciplines from said initiator class and can only learn from that discipline.
Fighter Bob is level 10, chose warder, and chose the Iron Tortoise discipline; he knows 6 maneuvers and can only perform 1st level maneuvers from the tortoise discipline, can ready 4 maneuvers at a time, and knows two stances.
|
|
For those philosophically-mathematically against the "Skill vs AC/CMD/Attack" mechanic, consider substituting the following:
For any maneuver that allows you to make a skill check to strike or counter, instead of rolling a skill check, roll:
1d20 + BAB + two ability scores.
The two ability scores are chosen from Initiation modifier, Discipline skill key ability, or ST/DX.
A character that takes Skill Focus in a Discipline skill may substitute the bonus provided by the feat (+3 or +6) for one of the ability scores mentioned above.