What's the value of a caster level?

[N. Jolly]

For a lot of builds, it's fun to dip one level in a martial class to pick up some nice benefits, but there's always going to be that associated lost of caster level, spells, and spells known. So it makes me wonder, what's the value of that caster level? I ask that in respect to what would be a fair 'tax' in order to compensate for getting that caster level back?

We already have the Magical Knack trait which increases your caster level by 2, but doesn't apply to spells known and amount of spells per day. This is half of the Practiced Caster feat from 3.5.

There's already an example of something far more powerful than just regaining one caster level in Esoteric Training, a boon for having high standings in an organization.

Inner Sea Magic wrote:

Due to your membership in a spellcasting guild (and Fame score of 35) you gain a +3 bonus to your caster level with one spellcasting class of your choice and a +1 bonus to your caster level with another spellcasting class (up to a maximum of your character level). These bonuses grant you additional spells known and spells per day for your modified caster level.

So is the loss of caster level something that shouldn't be able to be overcome? Is it something that's worth a trait? Two? A feat? An item?

The ability in question exist, although not in a game that doesn't have this organization in it. The listed ability is far more powerful, so it makes me wonder why an ability like this hasn't been created yet.

[kestral287]

Well, let's break things down a bit:

-Assuming a trait is half a feat, +1 CL with no spells known/per day is 1/4th of a feat.
-Two spells known is, I believe, the minimum you'd gain off a full caster level until very high level Sorcerers; some levels are worth much more. Two spells known is a feat. Notably, that feat is reduced when we're talking about your highest level spells. Since a prepared caster can typically get two of their highest level spells but a spontaneous caster will get one to none, we'll call that a feat and a half.
-There is no clear-cut mathematical concept I can find for increasing spells per day on its own. That will have to be assigned arbitrarily.

So, minimum we're looking at two feats by my count, more likely something like three. This assumes that you believe the pricings laid out in Expanded Arcana and Magical Knack are valid of course.

[Helcack]

You have listed the most powerful boon I have ever seen, that boon is amazing. I'd say that by itself is worth 4 feats 1 for the +3 CL to one class and +1 CL to another(with continuing that one's progression and one each for continuing the spells known and per day of the class.

[N. Jolly]

Oh, I'm not using Esoteric Training as the standard for a feat that should increase caster level. Rather, it's being shown to explain that this ability actually exist in the game, if in a rather awkward fashion.

I'm not looking for the cost for getting Esoteric Training as a feat, rather the cost of what kind of ability you'd want to give a +1 Caster Level that also applies to spells known/accessible.

Me personally, I'd say that one of these 'advanced' +1 Caster Level abilities would be worth a trait, and getting a feat for a +2 to Caster Level, something that would help you splash more easily. Esoteric Training to me should easily equal 2 feats, one for the +1 to two different classes, and another for the additional +2 to an additional class, or possibly just making these two different feats that stacked more easily.

I dislike how multiclassing with casters is such a death sentence, either for Wizard progression (pushing it to Sorc progression) or Sorc progression (making it even MORE painful), and so I feel like either an ability or item should exist to make this less painful.

[thegreenteagamer]

A feat with like three useless prerequisite feats. I'm talking "Run" useless, here.

And unrelated, with no possibility of synergy between them. Seriously useless.

[Arch_Bishop]

This is actually a very complicated matter.

I remember someone, back in 3.5 days, evaluating caster levels, spells etc. and reaching the conclusion that each spell known might actually worth a feat (arguably more).

Since spellcasting is the most powerful mechanism in the game, it would be safe to assume that losing caster levels(and spells/day/known) is never worth it (from an optimization's point of view) and is always worth it if you can get them back, by any means.

Just to make a comparison, back in 3.5, some of you might remember it, there was the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage feat that gave kobolds +1 Sorcerer caster level beyond your maximum character level(essentially giving you wizard spell progression). IIRC it required 2 feats, some HPs loss and a few gold. Someone might argue that this isn't the same case but it's the closest thing I can think to compare to.

With all that being said, if practised spellcaster/magical knack worth 1/half a feat, while only raising caster level, I could easily say that esoteric training effects, would require many feats.

[Ascalaphus]

I think Paizo's kinda in denial about Esoteric Training. Like "did we publish that?!"

That said, your question is valid. Multiclassing casters is awkward. If the correct price can be determined, I'd be okay with "buying back" casting for feats. But I don't know how to price it.

There's quite a bit of precedent for feats that reduce the pain of multiclassing. Boon Companion is the most-used, I think.

[johnnythexxxiv]

Throw me in the camp of three feats for the fist caster level and retaking the third feat for each other caster level you want to gain back, capping at 4 caster levels. 6 feats for four true caster levels seems fair enough, basically ends up being almost exactly on par with 5 Expanded Arcanas for bonus spells but having to slog through "Monkey Lunge and Elephant Stomp Version 2, now with even more wasted ink!" in order to get to the bonus caster levels.

@thegreenteagamer: run is actually situationally useful, and is a prereq for a couple okay feats so is too good for a prereq for this potential feat tree. The best we should look at is Prone Shooter for a comparason