The Witch can choose to pick a patron familiar instead of her standard familiar, which grants her familiar a power depending on the Witch's patron.
Now, the power of interest is the one granted by the Animals patron.
The familiar gains the ability to speak with animals of its kind at 1st level.
If it would normally gain this ability at 7th level, the familiar gains the ability to speak with all animals (as though constantly under the effects of speak with animals) at 7th level.
My question is how this ability interacts with archetypes which replaces the "Speak with animals of its kind" ability normally granted at 7th level.
Like the Valet archetype's 7th level replacement power of "Speak with animals of its kind".
At 7th level, a valet can move before and after using the aid another action, as long as its total movement does not exceed its speed.
This ability replaces speak with animals of its kind.
Familiar archetypes modify familiars' standard abilities, similar to how class archetypes modify player characters' class features. These archetypes function by swapping out certain abilities that are standard to common familiars for new abilities tailored to particular themes. Unless otherwise stated, levels referenced in this section refer to the familiar's effective level, which is the master's combined levels in the classes that grant that familiar.
Would an Animals Patron, Valet familiar of a first level witch be granted the Deliver Aid ability?
Would an archetype of a class be granted the replacement ability of a class feature earlier if the PC managed to get said class feature earlier?
At the time the animal reaches 7th level, the ability it was going to replace is no longer 'speak with its own kind', but speak with all. The Deliver Aid ability has nothing to swap out in the 7th level slot, and does not apply.
Otherwise, you're replacing a replaced ability, i.e. the ability has already been swapped out for a better one, you can't swap out the new ability.
And no, I wouldn't let the ability at 7th level swap into the ability at 1st level. Kind of a have your cake and eating it too, scenario.
==Aelryinth
At the time the animal reaches 7th level, the ability it was going to replace is no longer 'speak with its own kind', but speak with all. The Deliver Aid ability has nothing to swap out in the 7th level slot, and does not apply.
Otherwise, you're replacing a replaced ability, i.e. the ability has already been swapped out for a better one, you can't swap out the new ability.
And no, I wouldn't let the ability at 7th level swap into the ability at 1st level. Kind of a have your cake and eating it too, scenario.
==Aelryinth
At the time the animal reaches 7th level, the ability it was going to replace is still 'speak with its own kind', since the Patron familiar would only be granted 'speak with all' if it normally would get 'speak with its own kind' at level 7. Which it doesn't, since the archetype replaces that ability.
So you're not replacing a replaced ability, since the ability isn't replaced in the first place.
You are being granted the ability which is normally replaced at level 7 at level 1, and you won't be granted the 'speak with all' replacement ability at all.
By your interpretation (forgive me if I'm overanalyzing) an Animals Patron familiar wouldn't be able to take archetypes which replaces 'speak with animals of its kind", since it lacks that ability.
You're focusing on the 'speak with own kind' ability being replaced, whereas I'm focusing on "if you would normally gain at 7th level being replaced."
The animal patron takes that ability AHEAD of time, i.e. moving it to level 1, and stuffs in another ability.
The patron archetype replaces that ability when you get there.
So when you reach 7th level, the Deliver Aid looks at the 7th level slot for 'speaks with own kind', doesn't find it, and makes no substitution, there's already another ability swapped in there.
It doesn't look back at the level 1 ability to swap out. It looks very specifically at the level 7 ability, it doesn't qualify, so it doesn't swap.
==Aelryinth
@Eviljames
Yeah, that seems like a reasonable ruling. Getting speak with animals for a couple of levels before the 7th level replacement isn't anything I would choose a patron familiar for, but it is logical.
@Aelryinth
I'm actually focusing on both. The "If it would normally gain this ability at 7th level" sentence is of great importance since it implies that there are scenarios where the familiar wouldn't be granted the 'speak with own kind' ability. Namely familiar archetypes.
If an Animals patron familiar can't take archetypes, then the "normally" sentence becomes obsolete.
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Should work as follows;
Base familiar: Has 'speak with animals of kind' at 7th
Add Valet archetype: Replaces 'speak with animals of kind' at 7th with deliver aid (amongst other archetype changes)
Add Patron familiar: Adds 'speak with animals of kind' at 1st, no benefit at 7th since Valet removed the ability at that level
Should work as follows;
Base familiar: Has 'speak with animals of kind' at 7th
Add Valet archetype: Replaces 'speak with animals of kind' at 7th with deliver aid (amongst other archetype changes)
Add Patron familiar: Adds 'speak with animals of kind' at 1st, no benefit at 7th since Valet removed the ability at that level
And since you can't replace an ability you don't have, the Animals patron familiar can't be a Valet familiar, correct?
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And since you can't replace an ability you don't have, the Animals patron familiar can't be a Valet familiar, correct?Should work as follows;
Base familiar: Has 'speak with animals of kind' at 7th
Add Valet archetype: Replaces 'speak with animals of kind' at 7th with deliver aid (amongst other archetype changes)
Add Patron familiar: Adds 'speak with animals of kind' at 1st, no benefit at 7th since Valet removed the ability at that level
No, apply the changes in the other order.
You start with a normal Witch familiar.
Then make that a Valet familiar... it has 'speak with animals of kind' so the archetype is applied normally.
THEN add patron familiar... it gets 'speak with animals of kind' at 1st level, but does not get 'speak with all animals' at 7th level because it lost that 7th level ability when Valet was added.
@CBDunkerson
I wouldn't normally allow someone to choose in which order their abilities are modified (to their benefit), so I don't fully agree with you. But I accept that the familiar would become incompatible with (at least) the level 7 replacement ability.
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@CBDunkerson
I wouldn't normally allow someone to choose in which order their abilities are modified (to their benefit), so I don't fully agree with you. But I accept that the familiar would become incompatible with (at least) the level 7 replacement ability.
The order is really determined by level progression. The familiar becomes BOTH a Valet and Patron familiar at 1st level... you just don't actually get to the Valet familiar ability switch until 7th level.
That is, at 1st level the Witch would have a familiar with the Valet class skills, able assistant, prestidigitation, and teammate abilities... and ALSO the Patron 'speak with animals of kind' ability.
At 7th level that familiar would NOT gain the 'speak with all animals' ability, because Valet swapped 7th level 'speak with animals of kind' out for deliver aid.
Okay, I thought you meant that the familiar wouldn't get the 'Deliver Aid' ability at 7th level, but you actually meant that it wouldn't get 'speak with all animals'?
"Add Patron familiar: Adds 'speak with animals of kind' at 1st, no benefit at 7th since Valet removed the ability at that level"
*****
So, you share Eviljames' view?
'Speak with animals of its kind' until level 7th, when it is replaced with 'Deliver Aid'. Never gets 'speak with all animals'.
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'Speak with animals of its kind' until level 7th, when it is replaced with 'Deliver Aid'. Never gets 'speak with all animals'.
Nope. You keep 'speak with animals of its kind' even when 'Deliver Aid' kicks in.
Deliver Aid replaced 'speak with animals of its kind' at 7th level from the base familiar... the patron familiar added that same ability back in at 1st level... no need to replace it AGAIN when you get to 7th.
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Agreed with CBDunkerson.
The phrase "If it would normally gain this ability at 7th level" means that the second half of the animal patron section does not apply to familiars that would not normally gain the speak with animals ability at 7th level (such as valet familiars). Thus the only change that the animal patron makes to such familiars is to give them Speak With Kind at level 1.
Without the conditional phrase, the animal patron would be incompatible with familiar archetypes that replace Speak with Kind.
Ah, alright.
I thought of it as if the Familiar was granted one of its abilities earlier, but you see it as if the familiar is granted the 'speak with animals of its kind' at both the first and seventh level.
That certainly makes sense.
Actually, the order is applied by level, you don't have a say in it.
At first level, the familiar loses its level 7 speak ability, and it is moved to level 1. Its level 7 ability will be Speak with all.
When level 7 comes around, Deliver Aid looks for speak at 7th, and finds Speak with all. It doesn't qualify, and wouldn't get swapped at that time.
You don't get to determine the order the level 7 ability is replaced. It happens at level 1, and THEN level 7.
Pretty sure it was Not Meant to stack the way you want it to happen. Both abilities reference the same ability, and you want to swap it twice. Ugh.
==Aelryinth
Actually, the order is applied by level, you don't have a say in it.
At first level, the familiar loses its level 7 speak ability, and it is moved to level 1. Its level 7 ability will be Speak with all.
When level 7 comes around, Deliver Aid looks for speak at 7th, and finds Speak with all. It doesn't qualify, and wouldn't get swapped at that time.
You don't get to determine the order the level 7 ability is replaced. It happens at level 1, and THEN level 7.
Pretty sure it was Not Meant to stack the way you want it to happen. Both abilities reference the same ability, and you want to swap it twice. Ugh.
==Aelryinth
I'm genuinely confused. I thought I had it, and then your comment just scrambles my thought process. Again!
"When level 7 comes around, Deliver Aid looks for speak at 7th, and finds Speak with all. It doesn't qualify, and wouldn't get swapped at that time."
If it doesn't qualify, then you wouldn't be able to take the archetype, yes? You can't take part of an archetype, it is an all or nothing deal.
(this is why I think I have misunderstood you)
So you interpret it as if you are granted the 'speak with its own kind' early, and that it is the same ability which is normally granted at level 7?
I'm pleased with CBDunkerson's view of the Animals patron's interaction with archetypes, as that actually means you would get something from choosing the patron familiar at higher levels.
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When level 7 comes around, Deliver Aid looks for speak at 7th, and finds Speak with all. It doesn't qualify, and wouldn't get swapped at that time.
Unless familiar archetypes work differently than class archetypes that is definitely NOT the case.
With class archetypes you cannot get 'part of the archetype' up to a certain level. You either get the whole thing or nothing. It seems clear to me that familiar archetypes are meant to work the same way.
Thus, you could not be getting the Valet skills and abilities at lower levels and then suddenly get to 7th level and find yourself unable to get 'Deliver Aid' as you suggest.
Rather, as soon as you apply the Valet familiar archetype at 1st level you are changing what will happen at future levels... the 7th level 'speak with animals of kind' is swapped out with 'Deliver Aid'.
Basically, you have three options here;
1: Take Animal Patron familiar alone. You get 'speak with kind' at 1st and 'speak with all' at 7th.
2: Take Valet familiar alone. You get 'Deliver Aid' at 7th and never have 'speak with kind'.
3: Take Valet & Animal Patron familiar. You get 'speak with kind' at 1st and 'Deliver Aid' at 7th.
There is no 'hybrid' where you get Valet familiar 1st-6th and Patron familiar 1st 'speak with kind' & 7th 'speak with all'.
Animal Patron only gives 'speak with all' if you would have received 'speak with kind' at 7th. Valet familiar prevents that from happening because it replaces 'speak with kind'.
Actually, since it is incapable of swapping at 7th, you wouldn't be able to take Valet familiar.
By order of operations, Animal will be implemented before Valet is, i.e. it takes place at level 1. If you never reach 7, there's never a test, but Animal has already taken place.
Valet never will, since the ability has already been swapped.
The OTHER method, where Valet is applied first, means that Animal will go looking for speak with kind, not find it, and so can't be applied.
Ergo, the two templates are going after the same ability, the level 7 Speaks with Kind. You can't have them both. Pick one, and go with it.
Valet isn't going to replace SPeaks with Animals in the level 1 slot. That ability has already been swapped once, and templates have to work backwards and forwards in both directions to be applied evenly. If you get materially different results depending on which is applied first, best to take a second look at what you are trying to do.
And what you are trying to do here is get all the benefits of both templates, despite both of them hinging on the same level 7 ability. It's not going to work.
==Aelryinth
A good rule of thumb I've found is that if you're in the experimentation phase and looking to stack two archetypes / replacement options and you have to ask yourself which order to apply the two because that would change things, you've definitely selected two options that alter the same feature and don't stack (that's not the only way to figure it out, but it's something that's helped me notice that's what I was doing in the past). This is generally more clearcut when you are trying to add an extra layer to this mix that also replaces speak with animals of its kind (for instance, Improved Familiar); with all three in the mix, it definitely doesn't work.
Now I have finally understood where everyone stands.
I believed that the ability granted from the Animals patron was the exact same ability (not replaced) the familiar is granted at level 7, only earlier. That is why I wondered how it interacted with archetypes, since if it was the same ability, then it might mean that the archetype-ability which replaces 'speak with its own kind' would be granted earlier.
Aelryinth believes that the ability granted from the Animals patron is a replacement for the normal 'speak with its kind' ability granted at level 7, which means you can't replace it with an ability from an archetype.
CBDunkerson believes that the ability granted from the Animals patron is in addition to the 'speak with its own kind' ability granted at level 7, allowing someone to replace the ability granted at level 7 with an archetype's while still keeping the ability gained from the Animals patron.
*****
I'll try to challenge Aelryinth's view tomorrow. It's late and I'm writing on a tablet.
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By order of operations, Animal will be implemented before Valet is, i.e. it takes place at level 1.
False.
They both take place at level 1. Valet familiars have four first level abilities (Class Skills, Able Assistant, Prestidigitation, and Teammate).
The OTHER method, where Valet is applied first, means that Animal will go looking for speak with kind, not find it, and so can't be applied.
False.
The Animal Patron familiar option specifically accounts for the possibility that the familiar has no 'speak with kind' ability at 7th level. The absence of that ability does NOT prevent it from being applied.
And what you are trying to do here is get all the benefits of both templates, despite both of them hinging on the same level 7 ability.
False.
The Animal Patron familiar option (which is a Witch class option rather than a "template" or a familiar archetype BTW) provides one definite ('speak with kind' at 1st) and one possible ('speak with all' at 7th) benefit. The 'speak with all' benefit is only available if the familiar has 'speak with kind' at 7th level. Valet familiars do NOT have 'speak with kind' at 7th level, and therefore a combination Valet/Patron familiar does NOT get "all the benefits of both".
In short... the rules explain how these two options interact. There is a specific condition in the Animal Patron familiar rules which accounts for the possibility of 'speak with kind' not being available at 7th.
Animal Patron familiar does NOT require 'speak with kind' at 7th level. That is very clear from the text (see the OP). Thus, Valet having replaced that ability does NOT prevent Animal Patron from also being applied.
@Byakko and Rogue Eidolon
I don't think anyone here is trying to apply the different templates in a specific order to gain an ability which wouldn't be granted if they were applied in a different manner.
Our disagreement originates from how we believe that the Animals Speaker ability is granted.
While Aelryinth is approaching the subject with language which reminds me of programming, he is in no way implying that I could stack any templates which modify the same ability. However, he does believe that CBDunkerson is trying to do so.
*****
@Aelryinth
While I understand your point of view, Aelryinth, I do not think that it corresponds with the description of Animal Speaker (as CBDunkerson said in his latest post).
The familiar gains the ability to speak with animals of its kind at 1st level.
If it would normally gain this ability at 7th level, the familiar gains the ability to speak with all animals (as though constantly under the effects of speak with animals) at 7th level.
Okay, Wonders, look at what you have there.
If it would normally have Speak/Own at 7th, instead it has Speak/All.
This disqualifies it from taking Valet Familiar...no Speak/Self in the level 7 slot to swap.
If it doesn't have Speak/own at 7th, it doesn't qualify to swap in valet, ANYWAYS.
But, CG is arguing, if you change the order you apply them, you swap in Valet first, replacing the 7th, and then get speak/self at 1, but never get Speak/All, is that what you are saying?
Because what CB seems to be trying to argue is that Valet replaces the level 1 Speak/Self from Animal, which is replacing a swapped ability with a swapped ability. That's right out.
This becomes one of those corner case rules exploits. Depending on which one you apply first, you can or cannot get some of the benefits.
If you apply Valet First, technically you could get Speak/Self and never get Speak/All. If you apply Animal first, then you cannot apply Valet at all, but you get Speak/All.
Since this is obviously a contradiction, as Rogue Eidolon put it, the templates don't stack, and you simply shouldn't do this. You should not have to use order of operations on ANY template. They should either stack perfectly, or not stack at all.
Or, to put it another way, Templates don't read one another. They only read the base creature. CB is picturing them stacking on top of one another, 3 cards high. In reality, what happens is the two cards of the templates have to fit together like a puzzle and form one level, not two.
i.e. if you can't apply both templates at the same time, you can't apply them both. Valet doesn't look to see what Animal is doing, it just looks at the base template. Animal doesn't look at what Valet is doing, it just looks at the base template.
In this instance, both templates want to do something with the level 7 slot. You can't stack them, so they don't fit together.
==Aelryinth
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Because what CB seems to be trying to argue is that Valet replaces the level 1 Speak/Self from Animal, which is replacing a swapped ability with a swapped ability.
Um... no. Nothing remotely like that.
If you apply Valet First, technically you could get Speak/Self and never get Speak/All. If you apply Animal first, then you cannot apply Valet at all, but you get Speak/All.
That's basically it... except that if you apply both then Valet familiar will ALWAYS alter the 7th level ability first because it is a familiar archetype while Patron familiar is a class option (again, neither is a "template").
All changes for an archetype are applied when the first difference from the base class (and presumably base familiar) is encountered. For Valet familiar that is at 1st level when the familiar class skills and other options are changed. At that point you apply the ENTIRE archetype, including any future changes... in this case causing 'speak with kind' at 7th to be replaced by 'Deliver Aid'. Even if you never get to 7th level in that class you still can't apply another archetype which would modify 'speak with kind' because the Valet archetype immediately altered all future options and 'speak with kind' at 7th is thus gone.
The Animal Patron Familiar option, on the other hand, is NOT a familiar archetype. It is a Witch class option. It changes Witch patron spells, adds an ability to the familiar at 1st level, and potentially adds another ability when you reach 7th level. If you never get to 7th level then the 7th level Witch Patron Familiar option never comes in to play and has no impact on anything (e.g. you can add an archetype which replaces it because you haven't gotten it yet). If you DO reach 7th, with a familiar that is also a Valet, then 'speak with kind' was replaced by the archetype way back at 1st level and is not available... so you don't get 'speak with all'.
Also note: The Animal Patron familiar option specifically allows for the possibility that the familiar does NOT get 'speak with kind' at 7th level. However, the only way that can happen with an animal familiar is if a familiar archetype (like say, Valet) has been applied. You could have an Improved Familiar without 'speak with animals of kind' at 7th... but then the entire Animal Patron familiar option would be meaningless because the familiar isn't an animal and there are no animals of its kind for it to speak with.
Because what CB seems to be trying to argue is that Valet replaces the level 1 Speak/Self from Animal, which is replacing a swapped ability with a swapped ability. That's right out.
Actually, he is arguing that the lv 1 Speak/Self is a different ability from the lv 7 Speak/Self. Valet replaces the level 7 Speak/Self while the familiar keeps the level 1 Speak/Self.
*****
Normal Familiar
1st–2nd: Alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link
3rd–4th: Deliver touch spells
5th–6th: Speak with master
7th–8th: Speak with animals of its kind
*
Valet Familiar
1st–2nd: Able Assistant (replaces Alertness), Prestidigitation (Sp), Teammate (Ex), improved evasion, share spells, empathic link
3rd–4th: Deliver touch spells (Modified, see Valet)
5th–6th: Speak with master
7th–8th: Deliver Aid (Ex) (Replaces Speak with animals of its kind)
*
Normal Animal Speaker Familiar
1st–2nd: Alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, Speak with animals of its kind
3rd–4th: Deliver touch spells
5th–6th: Speak with master
7th–8th: Speak with animals of its kind, Speak with all animals
*
Valet Familiar Animal Speaker Familiar
1st–2nd: Able Assistant (replaces Alertness), Prestidigitation (Sp), Teammate (Ex), improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, Speak with animals of its kind
3rd–4th: Deliver touch spells (Modified, see Valet)
5th–6th: Speak with master
7th–8th: Deliver Aid (Ex) (Replaces Speak with animals of its kind)
*****
So the Valet archetype and Animals patron are not in conflict, since the Animals patron template doesn't modify the 'Speak with animals of its kind' gained at level 7.
The Animals Patron replaces Speak with Kind with Speak with animals. It does indeed alter the level 7 ability. That's REALLY trying to interpret the language to your benefit, by saying the ability is still there after being changed.
You're still coming down to order of operations affecting the results, claiming that you immediately take into account one change that takes place at level 7, and then ignore the other one until level 7 actually comes, despite both being options you have to pick at level one.
In other words, 'because it works at level 1, we'll ignore the fact it doesn't work at level 7.' Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I don't really buy it, CB. You're basically trying to loophole the rules by saying one applies immediately, and the other does not, to get the results you want. And I'm reeeeeeally leery of that kind of rules lawyering.
As for the 'logic' of it, I'm more inclined to believe that the familiar option for the witch is an option 'instead' of the familiar archetypes, not 'in addition' to them, and they are possibly not MEANT to stack.
I would also point out that 'speak with own kind' is completely superfluous for the Improved Familiar feat line, because most of those familiars can ALREADY speak with their own kind. So feats and stuff obviating some of the familiar abilities is already part of the system.
I could be entirely wrong, and I admit it.
IN ANY EVENT...I don't believe it would be overpowered to allow this, although the Valet is VERY nice for making magic items. The rules seem ambiguous, so I would default to the best answer...ask your GM if he'll allow what you want to do, and say the 'rules' could be read either way, so what does he consider best for the campaign?
That way, everyone would be happy.
I don't expect this to get answered on the FAQ anytime soon, in any event.
==Aelryinth
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As for the 'logic' of it, I'm more inclined to believe that the familiar option for the witch is an option 'instead' of the familiar archetypes, not 'in addition' to them, and they are possibly not MEANT to stack.
Then why would it have text for a condition that can ONLY happen due to a familiar archetype?
Again, the Animal Patron familiar text covers the possibility that the familiar does not get 'speak with animals of kind' at 7th level. There are two situations where that ability is not available;
1: Improved Familiars - These are not animals and thus do not get the ability to speak with animals of their kind. If they took Animal Patron and got 'speak with animals of kind' at 1st level it wouldn't actually DO anything... because there AREN'T any animals of their kind. Nor would the 7th level option do anything... because improved familiars don't get 'speak with animal of kind' at 7th. So this would be an ability that delays the Witch's patron spells one level in exchange for... nothing.
2: Familiar archetypes - Most of the familiar archetypes swap out 'speak with animals of kind' at 7th. They thus work perfectly with Animal Patron familiar and are the only plausible explanation for the clause about the familiar not having 'speak with kind' at 7th.
Basically, it seems clear to me that these abilities are MEANT to stack, because otherwise Animal Patron would ALWAYS grant 'speak with all animals' at 7th because the familiar would always have 'speak with animals of kind' at that level... or be an improved familiar that couldn't benefit from Animal Patron at all.
PS: Animal is also the ONLY Patron familiar option where there is ANY argument to be made against it stacking with familiar archetypes.
The Animals Patron replaces Speak with Kind with Speak with animals.
Nowhere in the description of Animal Speaker does it say that it replaces the 'Speak with kind' ability. (Or that it replaces anything at all, for that matter.)
I don't expect this to get answered on the FAQ anytime soon, in any event.
Haha, no it would have to be a frequently asked question first! And from the looks of it, there isn't much buzz about the Animal Speaker.
Wonder, be reasonable. If it grants the ability at level 1, and changes the ability at level 7, it isn't leaving the original ability at level 7, however you want to look at it.
==Aelryinth
My question has been answered, and I thank you all for your input.
/Thread end