I recently decided to try and merge fighter and cavalier into a non-mount focused knight. The idea is that this is simply a fighter who upholds a code. Removing the mount from the cavalier is a very tricky thing to do in my opinion, but whatever, I gave it a shot and here it is.
Let me know what you think about it. I'm sure it's not balanced, but let's discuss it so I can make this better.
Edit: I think the formatting on this page is messing with the full url of the google doc so I made a tinyurl for it
http://tinyurl.com/pathfinderknight
Says it could not be displayed.
Scott_UAT wrote: Says it could not be displayed. Formatting was messing with the url most likely, switched to a tinyurl link
LINK
Really, really hard to read. Can you make everything less wide?
Ciaran Barnes wrote: LINK
Really, really hard to read. Can you make everything less wide?
Not sure I really understand what you mean?
I have to scroll to the left and right to see the whole thing. The table is very wide with lots of emtpy space. Also, your new class features appear to the right of the table, instead of under it.
This might be an issue with viewing the file format of your document on an ipad.
Here's what I see
Ciaran Barnes wrote: I have to scroll to the left and right to see the whole thing. The table is very wide with lots of emtpy space. Also, your new class features appear to the right of the table, instead of under it.
This might be an issue with viewing the file format of your document on an ipad.
Ah, roger that, I'll fix it up asap.
Aubanis wrote: Ciaran Barnes wrote: I have to scroll to the left and right to see the whole thing. The table is very wide with lots of emtpy space. Also, your new class features appear to the right of the table, instead of under it.
This might be an issue with viewing the file format of your document on an ipad.
Ah, roger that, I'll fix it up asap. Fixed it up so it's nice and compact with borders to make it a bit more manageable
The layout is better, and the blue-backed headers are tasteful and provide a good contrast. Still, I would go a little further. Merge some cells (like you did for Role) to turn the skill list and your class features in paragraphs. Try to arrange the information into the order that it appears in a Paizo character class.
Keep in mind that some of the following feedback is purely taste.
Class Features
You should copy and paste the class features that you borrow, instead of simply referencing them in your table.
Skill List
I have said many times that far too many home brewed classes have Perception as a class skill. Yes, everyone wants to have Perception, but not everyone does. I think this is a class that should not - like a fighter, paladin, or cavalier. I think you could also add one or ore more Knowledge skills to the list, such as geography, history and/or local. Adding Heal would be thematic as well. Historically speaking, becoming a knight was a full-time job, so removing Profession might be a nice touch.
Chivalric Bond/Signature Weapon
Since this is a non-Paizo, 3rd party feat, either list the source or simply write out the benefit. Also, if Signature Weapon is the only option, drop Chivalric Bond and simply call the class feature Signature Weapon. Although much like a wizard, paladin, druid, or ranger has an option in it's bond, I would still allow a choice. If you allow a choice, use the original wording or chivalric bond and still list the source for the feats. On the other hand, feats are not great class features. Use them sparingly.
Challenge, Armor Training, Bonus Feat, Immune to Fear
List the details of this class feature
Order
List the details of this class feature, but you can skip listing the actual orders to save space. Let the reader know where details on the orders can be found.
Quality
Nice
Diehard
You can do better than simply slapping on a bonus feat.
Defensive Challenge
I think naming it Defensive Aura would be more fitting, and I also think that 12th level is awfully late to gain this class feature. I would personally drop chivalric bond and use this as your 4th level feature, then have it improve as levels are gained.
All in all, I think you just took your favorite parts of fighter and some other classes. Its OK to borrow, but this would be much more interesting if there was some more original content.
Ciaran Barnes wrote: The layout is better, and the blue-backed headers are tasteful and provide a good contrast. Still, I would go a little further. Merge some cells (like you did for Role) to turn the skill list and your class features in paragraphs. Try to arrange the information into the order that it appears in a Paizo character class.
Keep in mind that some of the following feedback is purely taste.
Class Features
You should copy and paste the class features that you borrow, instead of simply referencing them in your table.
Skill List
I have said many times that far too many home brewed classes have Perception as a class skill. Yes, everyone wants to have Perception, but not everyone does. I think this is a class that should not - like a fighter, paladin, or cavalier. I think you could also add one or ore more Knowledge skills to the list, such as geography, history and/or local. Adding Heal would be thematic as well. Historically speaking, becoming a knight was a full-time job, so removing Profession might be a nice touch.
Chivalric Bond/Signature Weapon
Since this is a non-Paizo, 3rd party feat, either list the source or simply write out the benefit. Also, if Signature Weapon is the only option, drop Chivalric Bond and simply call the class feature Signature Weapon. Although much like a wizard, paladin, druid, or ranger has an option in it's bond, I would still allow a choice. If you allow a choice, use the original wording or chivalric bond and still list the source for the feats. On the other hand, feats are not great class features. Use them sparingly.
Challenge, Armor Training, Bonus Feat, Immune to Fear
List the details of this class feature
Order
List the details of this class feature, but you can skip listing the actual orders to save space. Let the reader know where details on the orders can be found.
Quality
Nice
Diehard
You can do better than simply slapping on a bonus feat.
Defensive Challenge
I think naming it Defensive Aura would be more fitting, and I also think that 12th...
Thank you very much for the critique, I'll be sure to make the modifications you suggested. I mainly came up with this mash up in a hurry to use in a homebrew campaign. I'll be sure to be more creative in the next version of this homebrew class.
I like it so far. I had some alternate abilities written out for my own uncounted cavalier archetype to replace order abilities that strengthen mounted combat. Would you be interested in them?
As for feedback, I do enjoy defensive challenge and quality. Perhaps quality could have a scaling bonus though? Like +1 more every 8 levels? Also more knowledge skills would help (though orders already do that).
As a whole, this class feels very playable even if you make no changes. Very cool!
Why not just use the Samurai, but replace the katana, naginata and wakizashi with a bastard sword, [western reach weapon](bill? halberd?) and swordbreaker dagger?
It's got some nice ideas.
Reminds me of the 3PP Knight class from a Fistful of Denarii, except merged with Cavalier and Fighter.
Seems pretty cool.
Adam B. 135 wrote: I like it so far. I had some alternate abilities written out for my own uncounted cavalier archetype to replace order abilities that strengthen mounted combat. Would you be interested in them?
As for feedback, I do enjoy defensive challenge and quality. Perhaps quality could have a scaling bonus though? Like +1 more every 8 levels? Also more knowledge skills would help (though orders already do that).
As a whole, this class feels very playable even if you make no changes. Very cool!
Absolutely! Send the alternate cavalier abilities my way =)
I have made some substantial modifications to the class, in addition to changing to a doc form for easier layout purposes. I've also matched the paizo class pages. Thank you for your continued criticism and feedback!
I would recommend making the final ability a DC of 15+half the knight's level + Charisma modifier, but allow all enemies to make the check, rather than simply make them attack. Otherwise, perhaps push it down to being forced to attack the knight without a save only if the enemy is 5 or more HD lower than him.
Protector is useless as it is. Perhaps a number of times per day equal to 1/3rd his knight level, the Knight may opt to take any attack or effect targeting his ally onto himself. This means the enemy must roll against the Knights AC instead of its original target and the knight must make any saves by other effects.
That also means an evil knight can effectively steal buffs from his allies.
You new Prestige ability is top tier! I am a huge fan of what changes you have made to the Knight. That capstone is really cool. The DC of 20+cha modifier is in line with other level based DC abilities, so I think its fine. Fearless perhaps needs a small nerf? I am thinking make it more like the Paladin's Aura of Courage, but 30 feet?
These are the alternate order abilities I use for my unmounted cavalier archetype (Called the tournament fighter).
Alternate Order Abilities (Ex)
The Tournament Fighter may choose to replace his 2nd level order ability with Favored Maneuver. At 8th level he may choose to replace his 8th level order ability with Fast Footwork. At 15th level he may choose to replace his 15th level order ability with Knight’s Challenge.
Favored Maneuver (Ex)
At 2nd level, the Tournament Fighter gains a +2 bonus to one combat maneuver of his choice and no longer provokes attacks of opportunity while using that maneuver.
Fast Footwork (Ex)
At 8th level, the Tournament Fighter gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC. Additionally, he gains Mobility as a bonus feat, ignoring all prerequisites.
Knight’s Challenge (Ex)
At 15th level, the Tournament Fighter can make a knight’s challenge once per day. This functions like a normal challenge, but the Tournament Fighter adds his Charisma bonus on all attack rolls and damage rolls made against the target of his challenge. In addition, he receives a +4 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made to confirm critical hits against the target of his knight’s challenge.
It might be fun to tie Prestige into the Order's Edict/Code of Conduct. If he fails to exemplify his chosen order, then he prestige falters and he cannot use the ability until he is again in good standing. Obviously, things like this are subjective and can be a pain to arbitrate.
Gulian wrote: I would recommend making the final ability a DC of 15+half the knight's level + Charisma modifier, but allow all enemies to make the check, rather than simply make them attack. Otherwise, perhaps push it down to being forced to attack the knight without a save only if the enemy is 5 or more HD lower than him.
Protector is useless as it is. Perhaps a number of times per day equal to 1/3rd his knight level, the Knight may opt to take any attack or effect targeting his ally onto himself. This means the enemy must roll against the Knights AC instead of its original target and the knight must make any saves by other effects.
That also means an evil knight can effectively steal buffs from his allies.
I've taken your suggestions and used them. I've fixed up Indomitable Presence so that all enemies must make the will save.
I've also updated Protector to your suggestion with the slight modification of the knight being able to receive any attack, spell, or effect targeted at any ally within a 10 ft radius of the knight.
Adam B. 135 wrote: You new Prestige ability is top tier! I am a huge fan of what changes you have made to the Knight. That capstone is really cool. The DC of 20+cha modifier is in line with other level based DC abilities, so I think its fine. Fearless perhaps needs a small nerf? I am thinking make it more like the Paladin's Aura of Courage, but 30 feet?
These are the alternate order abilities I use for my unmounted cavalier archetype (Called the tournament fighter).
Alternate Order Abilities (Ex)
The Tournament Fighter may choose to replace his 2nd level order ability with Favored Maneuver. At 8th level he may choose to replace his 8th level order ability with Fast Footwork. At 15th level he may choose to replace his 15th level order ability with Knight’s Challenge.
Favored Maneuver (Ex)
At 2nd level, the Tournament Fighter gains a +2 bonus to one combat maneuver of his choice and no longer provokes attacks of opportunity while using that maneuver.
Fast Footwork (Ex)
At 8th level, the Tournament Fighter gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC. Additionally, he gains Mobility as a bonus feat, ignoring all prerequisites.
Knight’s Challenge (Ex)
At 15th level, the Tournament Fighter can make a knight’s challenge once per day. This functions like a normal challenge, but the Tournament Fighter adds his Charisma bonus on all attack rolls and damage rolls made against the target of his challenge. In addition, he receives a +4 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made to confirm critical hits against the target of his knight’s challenge.
Fearless, in my opinion, doesn't need to be nerfed due to the fact that it's a 19th level ability. It's around those levels where your characters are basically demi-gods anyway, so having a good solid presence on the battlefield is the aim I'm trying to achieve with the knight. I think this ability in particular really gives him a solid presence.
Very nice alternate abilities! I think I might use these in an upcoming campaign I'm in.
Ciaran Barnes wrote: It might be fun to tie Prestige into the Order's Edict/Code of Conduct. If he fails to exemplify his chosen order, then he prestige falters and he cannot use the ability until he is again in good standing. Obviously, things like this are subjective and can be a pain to arbitrate. We'll leave the difficulty of arbitrating that to the DM and player because I really like that idea. I've updated Prestige to now state.. "If the knight breaks his edicts, he forfeits the benefits of Prestige and must seek redemption in any form from his Order (GM Interpretation). Once he is in good standing with his order, the knight regains the benefits of Prestige."
Your earlier critique you reminded me that being a knight was a full-time job, so I removed profession as a class skill and added this little bit as a neat flavor to the class.
"Bound For Life: The knight may not take a profession as being a knight is his profession. If the GM decides to allow you to use knight as a profession, you may add your knight level + charisma modifier (In place of wisdom modifier) as a bonus. Ideas on how to use knight as a profession includes: training npcs, attending diplomatic or political affairs, guarding an important npc, or carrying out the law."
Thanael wrote: Little Red Goblin Games have a free Knight Alternate Class pdf While Little Red Goblin Games came up with a brilliant take on the knight, it still leaves that mounted aspect in there which I did not like.
I am personally a minimalist when it comes to homebrew; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The knight historically was a primarily mounted combatant. The cavalier fills the historical role. So, there's that.
Also, your complaint is there's not a un-mounted cavalier type. I give you: Daring Champion, Huntmaster, Musketeer and Standard Bearer.
A house rule or homebrew item should fill a purpose that isn't already filled...the "knight" type, both foot soldier (which, I can assure you, was almost never a knight, but a peasant under command of a knight) and mounted is very well filled by the cavalier. So much so that when the APG came out, I was actually rather surprised they didn't call it a knight.
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