Regarding Enlightened Paladin Aura of Excellence What Does "Against Will" Mean?


Rules Questions


For Reference:
At 3rd level, an enlightened paladin is immune to any effect that would force him to reroll a die against his will or roll twice and take the lower result. Whenever an ally within 10 feet of him would reroll a die against her will, she can roll twice and take the higher result. Whenever an ally within 10 feet would be forced to roll twice and take the lower result, she can instead roll three times and take the second-lowest result. This ability functions only while the Enlightened paladin is conscious, and replaces aura of courage.

So what exactly does "Against her will" mean? I know that seems like a dumb question, but it's sort of important. Also, the idea of rerolls in general are incredibly abstract in-universe.

Does it mean that if I, as their ally, force them to reroll something (via Misfortune from Dual-Cursed Oracle or something similar) do they get the benefit of Aura of Excellence? After all, I am MAKING them reroll. Their character probably trusts their Paladin adventuring friend, so I'd say "no," but what if that character mistrusts the Paladin? What if our goals don't align? Are they even cognizant of my tampering with their luck? Most importantly, where is the distinction between "beneficial reroll" and "detrimental reroll" when the reroll abilities say "take the second result, even if worse."

This is important, since the idea of a luck-based Paladin splashing Oracle or something similar seems super fun mechanically, but is incredibly nebulous with how it functions RAW.

RAI obviously it's supposed to be rerolls from opponents who mean you harm. But RAW that's not what it says. And honestly, how many times will you face an opponent who forces rerolls? Once, twice in your character's lifetime if you're lucky?

(In a similar fashion, can't a Dual Cursed Oracle use Misfortune on their friends? RAI probably not, but RAW it certainly seems like it.)


Really?.... You know.... I can't help but shake the feeling that if you don't sort out concepts like 'against a persons will' and what it means, it's going to prove REALLY awkward to you later on in court... Or is it just the use of the word 'Wil' there that your jumping to 'Will Save'?

Against your will I would define against a litmus test of "Does the character that the effect is aimed against want this to happen?" Similar to how (technically) you get a save against healing spells, but you typically choose to fail it.

IF the answer is no, then it's against your will
If the answer is yes, then it is not against your will.

So you would be able to benefit from things like Fortune, luckblade re-rolls and improved Iron Will (which you want to allow therefore is not against your will), however effects like Misfortune would fail.


stoolpigeon87 wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

So what exactly does "Against her will" mean? I know that seems like a dumb question, but it's sort of important. Also, the idea of rerolls in general are incredibly abstract in-universe.

Does it mean that if I, as their ally, force them to reroll something (via Misfortune from Dual-Cursed Oracle or something similar) do they get the benefit of Aura of Excellence? After all, I am MAKING them reroll. Their character probably trusts their Paladin adventuring friend, so I'd say "no," but what if that character mistrusts the Paladin? What if our goals don't align? Are they even cognizant of my tampering with their luck? Most importantly, where is the distinction between "beneficial reroll" and "detrimental reroll" when the reroll abilities say "take the second result, even if worse."

This is important, since the idea of a luck-based Paladin splashing Oracle or something similar seems super fun mechanically, but is incredibly nebulous with how it functions RAW.

RAI obviously it's supposed to be rerolls from opponents who mean you harm. But RAW that's not what it says. And honestly, how many times will you face an opponent who forces rerolls? Once, twice in your character's lifetime if you're lucky?

(In a similar fashion, can't a Dual Cursed Oracle use Misfortune on their friends? RAI probably not, but RAW it certainly seems like it.)

The dual-cursed oracle, witch, and shaman abilities all just say "creature", not "enemy", so you could conceivably use it on your friend.

But under what circumstances would your want your ally to roll twice a take the lower result? Even three times and taking second lowest result seems less helpful than just rolling once.

Now, the Fate subdomain power "Tugging Strands" seems more useful for allies:
"At 8th level, you can force a creature within line of sight to reroll any one roll that it has just made before the result of the roll is revealed. The result of the reroll must be taken, even if it is worse than the original roll."

Since you take the second roll, no matter what, you can use this to make an ally reroll a clearly-failed saving throw. A GM might rule that since the ability says "force", it would count as "against your will"--even if the character wants it, they don't have the option to choose. If the character asked for that ability to be used on them in advance, then I'd say it was not against their will, even though the ability says "force".

(Any place an ability says "may", it is definitely not against your will, because the character can always choose not to do it.)


"Against your will" is incredibly easy to define .
Simple ask the player of the character. Do you want this effect to happen?
If the answer is No then it is agaisnt their will. Simple.
I cannot imagine any counter arguement which would not be a clear indicator that you need a new GM

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